Help me find my mistake!!

[Rayman]

yea....ive never heard of someone dragging knees going at low speed....maybe stuntas? i mean going that slow (sub-30mph) to drag knee u basically have to hang way the hell off the bike, and u better have some long ass legs or a small ass bike. i like putting a knee down but on the streets its damn near impossible, let alone doing figure 8s in a parking lot somewhere.

 

[rumpofsteelskin]

As others have already mentioned, it would be best to take your whole knee-dragging project to the track. You seem to have the requisite dedication and concentration to become a better rider, but your choice of venue for experimentation is inappropriate.

Really - you should do a track day. I recommend the nice folks at Zoom Zoom.

 

[Squidly McSmearstain]

I'm REALLY sorry I even mentioned the "knee down" thing. Again, I can't stress this enough:

MY INTENT WAS TO IMPROVE MY TURNING MECHANICS IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT!!! I STARTED AT SLOW SPEED BECUASE THIS IS WHAT THE BOOK RECOMMENDED.

If my knee dragged, that's great, but it was not the sole purpose of the exercise. Thanks to some of you for zeroing in on one tiny tidbit of information and blowing it way out of proportion.

Yes, I agree going to the track and taking a novice school is my best bet. However, riding time can be limited due to other responsibilities. I didn't have the chance to go to a novice school this year. I'm still interested in learning and improving, and want to take advantage of the time I do have to improve my skills.

Your mistake is easy to find.

Your trying to hard to drag knee on the worst possible surface with tires that are not warmed up.

I take issue with CityBikeMike about tire pressure however. Running at the manufacturers recommended pressure is perfectly fine for street riding and certainly did not lead to the crash......

This is useful information

Get comfortable with your bike and learn to be smooth rather than fast. In time, and probably by accident, you will knee drag when you least expect it.

This is exactly what I was doing; getting comfortable with my bike and working on my mechanics. I'm regretting my "knee drag" comment even more.

That said however, when you see the "real" fast guys with scuffed knee pucks, it was probably done at the track and not on the streets.

I know.

I still haven't read what your motivation is for dragging knee.

Style and poser points?

Please concentrate on the content of my posting and not on a single ill-chosen comment. I'll say it more forcefully: I don't give a shit if I drag my knee. If it happens, then great. My intent was to work on my riding mechanics because they need improvement.

You said you never been to the track and received any instruction. Why not?

Because responsibility and "real life" intrude on my hobbies. I will go to a novice school at some point, but these things can't happen at the drop of a hat. I'm not in my twenties any longer and several people rely on me. In the mean time it seems entirely reasonable and even (gasp) responsible to practice techniques in a low risk environment.

Self-learning usually means a rashed bike. But you already know that now.

Thanks for the news flash.

There's a reason I'm asking for diagnosis of my mistake. I know I erred. The problem is that I don't specifically know what my error was. I NEED to know more detail about what I did wrong. Incidentally, trying to drag a knee was not my mistake, because I didn't go out with the intent of dragging a knee. I went out with theintent of learning and improving.

Your mistake? You didn't take it to the track.

Gee, I guess I'll just walk out my back door to the track and learn at my convenience. Or maybe I'll just continue to ride the same way I always do until a convenient track day materizes.....

OR JUST MAYBE I can use the riding time I have available to me to improve my skills and try to repair mistakes, and make my motorcycling an ever improving process rather than a stagnant example of continued and consistent mistakes. Rather than try to improve my skills on the streets, where I and others may be injured, I could do these exercises in an area where the only negative result would be on me and my motorcycle. Also, rather than just ripping open the throttle, maybe I could work on the fundamentals at a slow speed and learn good habits.

It sounds like you've been riding for awhile, but if you've never had anyone show you the "right" way to do certain things, chances are you have developed some bad habits that will be very hard to break.

You're absolutely right. I'm working under the assumption that my crash is the result of a bad habit that needs breaking. That's why I'm here. I know it's tough to do from the internet, but I should make every effort possible to figure out my mistake so it can be corrected.

I know you're probably sick of hearing it, but if you have the appropriate gear and whatnot, I would highly recommend a track day with Zoom Zoom next season. They have an excellent beginner program with classroom sessions an everything. You will learn so much more in one day than you ever could riding on the street. You even can work one on one with the instructors for the whole day if you'd like. It sounds expensive, but $160-$180 for a wole days worth of fun can't be beat. Shit, I paid over $100 to go skydiving, and that was like 4 minutes of fun!

Without sounding like an elitist snob, I sneeze $160 - $180. The money is not an issue at all, and that price sounds ridiculously cheap. You should see what I spend on acoustic guitars. My Italian motorcycle is cheap compared to my other hobby.

I'm not sick of hearing about going to a track school. I plan on attending a track school. I want to attend a track school. I will attend a track school.

However, I don't think I should confine my learning and experimenting to a track school. If I'm lucky I'll get to do two track schools next year. At best that's four days of track riding and instruction. Yes, I WILL LEARN a ton during this time.

But I'll have literally hundreds of other days where I can learn and practice while not on the track. I can practice things at slow speeds to get the correct techniques down and develop the muscle memory necessary to make things instinctive. This is simply not going to happen for me over the course of a couple of days. I know myself enough to know that I require repeated practice and exercise. I'm just not going to go to a track school and magically no longer require practice.

I REALLY do appreciate the helpful and insightful comments.

Some of you need to work a bit on reading comprehension. I suggest going somewhere safe and reading at a slow speed until you truly understand what you're reading. Once you have the concepts of understanding what you've read, you can up your reading speed. However, the best approach is to do things slowly so that you understand the concepts rather than racing through the task.

 

[MrCrash]

Before any of you add anymore to this thread...

One of the concerns with the new "Crash Analysis" Forum is with potential flame-fests. It's easy to present advice in a "told-you-so" sort of manner, making those who are looking to learn immediately defensive - this is exactly what we're trying to avoid. A constructive, positive approach to the presentation of information is what separates a good instructor from an elitist smart-ass.

Because of this, we plan to keep a close eye on posts in the new forum, and will be enforcing the TOS accordingly.

I know this we're not in the new forum yet, and that most of you are trying to be positive. Until we have that up and going, all we can ask is for you guys to keep it constructive!

 

[Holeshot]

One thing about slow speed movements, such as you were practicing: they actually give less control than higher speed movements. You've got less momentum carrying your forward, onto better pavement at lower speeds, and hence, the bike wants to fall to the ground more readily. Any front tire slides/ fluid we may hit has an immediate effect that really can't be ridden out. Push a bike in a straight line hard (try a bicycle) and it'll travel until it loses enough speed to fall on its side (given the bars are locked). Do so at a slower speed and the bike won't remain upright very long.

I believe the speed of 20mph isn't conducive to progressive riding on that Tuono, possibly. It was designed for more aggressive speeds, and hence, its stability was impacted some. When you did get a front tire slide (not that likely at that speed, IMO) or hit some fluid/rocks/ poor traction, the bike had no ability to right itself, and fell straight to the ground.

That's my analysis. My thoughts are to try some road exercises in the future. At least the scenery changes!

 

[fubar929]

I take issue with CityBikeMike about tire pressure however. Running at the manufacturers recommended pressure is perfectly fine for street riding and certainly did not lead to the crash.

Don't bet on it...

The tire pressures printed on the side of the tire are for "maximum load". So, if you're pounding down I-5 with your girlfriend on the back and a full load of luggage, they're perfect. If you want maximum grip at extreme lean angles then they're probably not so great.

 

[Eric in Davis]

Mike/MrCrash did an excellent job summarizing the issues. My words are probably just repeating what he said, but here goes:

- Someone said manuf. recommended tire pressures are fine for street riding. True. Doing figure-8's in a parking lot while trying to achieve as much lean angle as you can is not street riding Therefore you're going to run into problems if you have rock-hard tire pressures.

- You said you scraped your toe slider/guard but not peg. Do you have proper foot position? Regardless of how aggressive your riding is, you shouldn't be "flat-footing" your pegs while cornering, you should have the front of your feet on the pegs.

- As people have stated, you're getting very little heat in your tires by cornering at low speeds. I'd bet you had less heat in your tires doing those figure-8's than if you had just been riding around from stop-light to stop-light accelerating and braking hard. Lesson - don't try to do figure-8's in a parking lot, it's just not going to work out (or at least, there is a very good likelihood that you won't be happy with the end result, as you unfortunately learned)

- A sort-of-related tidbit: trackday riders (racers too, actually) usually crash in the lowest speed corners at tracks. Slow speed turns are very tricky as Holeshot et al have stated.

I wouldn't expend too much energy trying to analyze this crash. Your experiment was doomed to fail before you started. My 0.02 would be to take a class at a track to better learn how to handle your motorcycle. Classes are good for everyone, they're not just for yahoos that want to go fast and be the next Valentino Rossi.

One more thing: This isn't meant as a flame or an "I told you so", but people should be reminded that you are not immune from serious injury or death by practicing at slow speeds in a parking lot. There have been plenty of "freak" crashes in parking lots that have killed riders. I'm not saying not to do it, but don't think that nothing can go wrong at low speeds in a parking lot.

 

[Squidly McSmearstain]

Eric, thanks for the feedback. That is EXACTLY the type of feedback I was hoping to get by posting on the forum. You gave informative replies and backed up assertions. Thank you.

This leads me to another question.

If you want to work on riding techniques, and you require instruction, OTHER THAN AT THE TRACK what are the alternatives?

I have Twist of the Wrist II and Total Control. I was working through the exercises in Total Control when I had my mishap. Personlly, I think it is completely unreasonable to limit performance practice and learning to track events. It is easily possible to work on things in a sane and safe manner outside of the track.

Suggestions?

 

[Eric in Davis]

That's a great question david_m. I hope other people can answer it. I haven't ridden on the street for 2+ years so I really can't offer any advice. I actually just got a street bike this weekend and it feels weird riding on the street again.

Let me add this:
I think that pretty much everything except for lean angle can be practiced in places other than the track. BUT there simply is not getting around the laws of Physics that say that you need to be traveling really fast (for the street) in order to achieve high lean angles. Things like body position, smooth throttle, foot position, hard braking, light control of your handlebars, etc... can be practiced at sane street speeds (well, hard braking should be practiced with care, you don't want to do that in traffic!)

 

[MrCrash]

- You said you scraped your toe slider/guard but not peg. Do you have proper foot position? Regardless of how aggressive your riding is, you shouldn't be "flat-footing" your pegs while cornering, you should have the front of your feet on the pegs.

In addition to that, I've noticed riders who are consciously trying to drag knee for the first time often point the toe on their inside feet forward rather than into the turn. Pointing the toe into the turn puts the knee out rather than forward, where it's more likely to touch the ground before the toe or the footpeg.

- A sort-of-related tidbit: trackday riders (racers too, actually) usually crash in the lowest speed corners at tracks. Slow speed turns are very tricky as Holeshot et al have stated.

I've noticed the same thing. Since lower speeds aren't as intimidating to less-experienced trackday goers, I've observed (and have been directly told) that those corners are where they are going to go for that additional lean angle. It explains why so many people new track riders fall in Turn 11 at Thunderhill. Racers and more experienced riders rarely fall there, as they tend to sacrifice speed and lean angle for drive out onto the back straight.[/B][/QUOTE]

 

[MrCrash]

Let me add this:
I think that pretty much everything except for lean angle can be practiced in places other than the track. BUT there simply is not getting around the laws of Physics that say that you need to be traveling really fast (for the street) in order to achieve high lean angles. Things like body position, smooth throttle, foot position, hard braking, light control of your handlebars, etc... can be practiced at sane street speeds (well, hard braking should be practiced with care, you don't want to do that in traffic!)

+1 :thumbup

 

[Eric in Davis]

In addition to that, I've noticed riders who are consciously trying to drag knee for the first time often point the toe on their inside feet forward rather than into the turn. Pointing the toe into the turn puts the knee out rather than forward, where it's more likely to touch the ground before the toe or the footpeg.

I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

While, you shouldn't need extreme cornering techniques while riding on the street, proper foot position is still a good idea because it allows you to use your lower body (e.g. weighting the inside peg) to "finesse" your bike midcorner. I think this is a matter of riding style and some may or may not do it, it's not mandatory.

One more thing. Riding with the front-half of your foot on the pegs also sets you up for better absorption of bumps by using your body as another part of your suspension. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good explanation, but basically: Think of standing on your tippie-toes and lifting yourself up and down like you're working out the calves of your legs. If you ride with your feet on the pegs properly then repeat that motion when you hit bumps. This will basically take your fat-ass :laughing off the seat and put all your weight on the pegs which will allow your chassis respond to bumps better. I'm not a suspension guru, but I do know motorcycles absorb bumps waaaay better when the riders weight is on the pegs instead of being all on the seat.

 

[rockerbox]

Now that you've been compleatly brow beaten.. can I add my two cents? I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this specifically..

I get to watch a lot of riders... New and experienced.. I learn a lot..

I see riders moving their knees away from the bike.. 'dropping a knee' specifically.. doing this destabilizes the bike... unless one compensate elsewhere.. I.E gripping the bars tight..

So... instead of using the handlebars as a crutch;

Why not shift your knee/weight foward to one side or the other and keep your knees tight on the tank?

Toes on the pegs, relax your upper body?

lean foward..

Crane your neck out.. look where your going..

Choke up on the throttle for more control..

Play with shifting your feet back and forth:

on one side.. toe is on the peg...
on the other.. arch is on the peg..

Alternate pressure on one peg or the other..

see how this works for you.. Play with it..

Pratice pratice... No crashing allowed..

 

[ryong]

practice, practice and more practice makes perfect.....

 

[WannabeSiR]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of temperature and imperfections in the pavement, another important thing that can't be overlooked is the lateral slope of the pavement in a turn. If you've ever watched MotoGP races or even have just looked at a track, the turns usually have lateral slopes to increase the tire contact in the pavement even though the riders are damn near elbow dragging. This helps them stay up even with extreme lean angles (otherwise they'd be down too due to gravity). Often twisties (or winding roads near mountains or canyons) have this lateral slope on the road for drainage and to help cars stay on track. This is why a lot of riders can kneedrag in the twisties, as opposed to city streets or parking lots where lateral slope is pretty nonexistant.

Also, there's a certain balance between the centrifugal force and lean angle of a bike. As others have said, the faster you go, the more you lean rather than steer. Your tires have a certain coefficient of friction that it can take with whatever pavement you're on in the given conditions. Higher speeds actually increase the centrifugal force, which helps counterbalance gravity's tendency to pull you off the bike and off rollin into the ditch during max lean. This helps keep that coefficient of friction down to something manageable by your tires.

Tires tires tires! Make sure you trust your tires.

 

[Eric in Davis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of temperature and imperfections in the pavement, another important thing that can't be overlooked is the lateral slope of the pavement in a turn. If you've ever watched MotoGP races or even have just looked at a track, the turns usually have lateral slopes to increase the tire contact in the pavement even though the riders are damn near elbow dragging. This helps them stay up even with extreme lean angles (otherwise they'd be down too due to gravity). Often twisties (or winding roads near mountains or canyons) have this lateral slope on the road for drainage and to help cars stay on track. This is why a lot of riders can kneedrag in the twisties, as opposed to city streets or parking lots where lateral slope is pretty nonexistant.

Tracks have positive camber/banking turns, but they also have off-camber/negative-camber turns as well.

You can't go as fast through off-camber turns, but you're still hauling-ass!

Your lateral slope theory is kind of based on some sound reasoning, but isn't really correct.

 

[Yody]

I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

While, you shouldn't need extreme cornering techniques while riding on the street, proper foot position is still a good idea because it allows you to use your lower body (e.g. weighting the inside peg) to "finesse" your bike midcorner. I think this is a matter of riding style and some may or may not do it, it's not mandatory.

One more thing. Riding with the front-half of your foot on the pegs also sets you up for better absorption of bumps by using your body as another part of your suspension. I'm having a hard time coming up with a good explanation, but basically: Think of standing on your tippie-toes and lifting yourself up and down like you're working out the calves of your legs. If you ride with your feet on the pegs properly then repeat that motion when you hit bumps. This will basically take your fat-ass :laughing off the seat and put all your weight on the pegs which will allow your chassis respond to bumps better. I'm not a suspension guru, but I do know motorcycles absorb bumps waaaay better when the riders weight is on the pegs instead of being all on the seat.

From what I've seen and done, you want your inside toe pointing almost towards the ground, this allows your knee and leg to extend outwards much easier. This "i believe" again is also why moto boots have toe sliders because your toe is much more likely to hit the ground in this position. Then the outside foot should be pointed outwards, with the bottom of the foot putting pressure on teh peg.

 

[MrCrash]

I'm not sure I'm picturing what you're saying correctly. For a right hander, I will have my right foot toes pointed down and toward bike. I have a big divet (sp?) in my boots in the middle about 2" from the end of my toes along the length of my foot. That's where I have my inside foot. It is a good position that lets you really push on the inside peg midcorner to keep the bike tight in a turn (like T2 Willow).

I took a couple of pictures to try to illustrate what I'm doing. Here I am, with my toe pointing into the turn. My knee follows my toe by pointing into the turn, and is in a better position to touch the ground before my toe or the footpeg does:

 

[MrCrash]

In this photo, the toe is pointing forward, so the knee follows by pointing forward. The rider can be on the balls of his feet here, but his knee will be against the bike and not out. If the rider's foot is oriented this way, his foot or peg will be far more likely to touch than his knee does.

 

[Squidly McSmearstain]

Okay, this leads to an interesting (at least to me) question. Earlier in my practice I was dragging my toe because I was pointing my toe down. I tucked my toes in which (of course) brought me knee closer to the bike.

My toe stopped scraping. After a little while, I increased my lean angle until the side of my foot was scraping. After I was scraping my foot (but not draggin any hard parts) is when the bike went out from under me.

Did tucking in my toe move my knee in so much that my knee no longer became a reliable "lean indicator"?