Feedback request: Thill East

[self_moto]

Hey,

Would like to get some feedback on my laps. Last time I've been told that I tend to steer + add lean anglethrottle, I think I still do that... but I'm trying to get rid of bad habit. (BP definitely needs some work, and I tend to get a bit wider lanes...) Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxSvcWAhkHY

 

[afm199]

You are slowing too much for the corners, then adding throttle before or at max lean. You might want to carry a bit more corner speed into the corner. Avoid adding throttle at max lean, it will bite you in the butt eventually.

 

[Holeshot]

I'm not sure what you mean by "steer + add lean angle". To put it simply: lean angle IS steering angle. More lean angle = more steering angle (tighter turning). At some point in the corner, you need to have your maximum lean angle.

I agree with Ernie, but will phrase it as: you're using a roll off instead of brakes to set your entry speed. To not confuse too much, use brakes to take you to your apex and throttle to take you away from the apex.

I can't see what's going on with your seat position, but it looks as if you're bent over the tank for much of the lap. Sitting up more under braking and in the slower parts of the track will give a bit better management of the controls. Bending at the waist tends to push your butt too far back in the seat.

YMMV.

 

[afm199]

What he said.

 

[stangmx13]

see all those pairs of cones on the inside of the corners? if u start acceleration before that, it was too early and u over-slowed for the corner. that early acceleration is going to bite u in the ass hard if u get any faster. it'll cause u to run wide on corner exit or spin the tire a lot for a highside.

it should also be your goal to add lean angle all the way to those cones and start removing lean angle right after them. in about half the corners, it looks like u maintained lean angle after the cones while accelerating. this is another good way to high side.

IMO, BP should be very low on your priorities right now. u could go 20sec a lap faster with this same BP if u improved your braking and throttle application. if you made your BP perfect right now, u might go only 1sec a lap faster.

 

[self_moto]

I'm not sure what you mean by "steer + add lean angle". To put it simply: lean angle IS steering angle. More lean angle = more steering angle (tighter turning). At some point in the corner, you need to have your maximum lean angle.

I agree with Ernie, but will phrase it as: you're using a roll off instead of brakes to set your entry speed. To not confuse too much, use brakes to take you to your apex and throttle to take you away from the apex.

I can't see what's going on with your seat position, but it looks as if you're bent over the tank for much of the lap. Sitting up more under braking and in the slower parts of the track will give a bit better management of the controls. Bending at the waist tends to push your butt too far back in the seat.

YMMV.

Yeah, sorry, I meant "steer + add throttle". I'm trying to trail brake to slowest part of the corner(it was ken hill school), but I agree that I have a big problem with over slowing on entry, and adjusting it later..

 

[stangmx13]

Yeah, sorry, I meant "steer + add throttle". I'm trying to trail brake to slowest part of the corner(it was ken hill school), but I agree that I have a big problem with over slowing on entry, and adjusting it later..

sounds like u have a good foundation of knowledge to ride safely. now for the hard part - actually doing it on track. no one here can make u pull that brake lever later.

 

[afm199]

sounds like u have a good foundation of knowledge to ride safely. now for the hard part - actually doing it on track. no one here can make u pull that brake lever later.

The best piece of advice I got on that was from Ken Hill. Actually two pieces.

If you feel the need to go to the brakes, go to the brakes, just delay the squeeze briefly, that conditions you to alter the muscle memory.

The other piece was the best; don't brake to the marker, brake to the letoff point. That ensures that you actually let off there.

 

[Holeshot]

The best piece of advice I got on that was from Ken Hill. Actually two pieces.

If you feel the need to go to the brakes, go to the brakes, just delay the squeeze briefly, that conditions you to alter the muscle memory.

The other piece was the best; don't brake to the marker, brake to the letoff point. That ensures that you actually let off there.

That's good advice. I'd massage one thing: brake at the same point, but using less initial brake. Using the brake lever to control your speed to the apex gives you the concept of "reverse throttle". When I began viewing the brake lever as what takes me to the apex and the throttle as what takes me from the apex, it was easier to understand how to cut down on the time to the apex and off the corner.

 

[Slow Goat]

.....you're using a roll off instead of brakes to set your entry speed. To not confuse too much, use brakes to take you to your apex and throttle to take you away from the apex.

This is my biggest issue...just have a hard time not letting off before going to the brakes and am too slow at entry*
Any drills or things I can focus on to stops this? I see it as a mental hurdle primarily.

* Doing just my sixth track day on Monday.

 

[Holeshot]

Not letting off the throttle before going to the brakes? Or holding the throttle too late? Two things come to mind:

1. Make sure to keep your eyes up and looking down field where your turn in is going to be. Don't lock on here, but make sure to keep your eyes not looking too close in.

2. The concept newer riders have for late braking is to brake later than the same turn on the previous lap, but they almost always end up over braking for corner, fearing the extra speed the carried into the corner. The concept of braking at the same point as on the previous lap, but lighter initially, allows a rider to cary more controllable speed into the corner. I.E. you're able to set your entry speed much easier by not trying to late brake/ panic brake. Eventually, you'll get a feel for how you can use your front brake lever to pressure the front end and tire into the pavement. THAT is what riders are talking about when they're talking about front end feel on entry and THAT is what makes a rider fast.

One story: several years ago as a racer who was getting faster, but stuck on the fear of entries (and having the podium level riders smoke me into the corners), I asked an old time top 5 plate racer how to get good front end feel...and I was really upset about this whole thing, to the point where it was grand frustration. His answer stuck with me forever:

"Corner entries are the LAST thing you'll learn and master in racing/ track riding. Just work up to it and make sure to not fuck up your exits with whatever you do on your entries. You'll get it and when you do, it'll click...THEN push your entries for more time".

It took a few years after that for it to really click, but when it did, it's magic and it's easy as could be. The word for what I feel when it's perfect: Front end pressure.

Anyway, you can modulate speed slower/ quicker with the front brake lever. Try messing with it at the next trackday. ProTip: that front brake lever pressure does not have to be constant. If you want to beat someone to the apex who's next to you in a braking zone, you can let out some lever and cary more speed into the apex when you're well into the braking zone too...etc, etc.

YMMV, report back and let us know your experience(s)! Have fun Monday!

 

[KazMan]

Not letting off the throttle before going to the brakes? Or holding the throttle too late? Two things come to mind:

1. Make sure to keep your eyes up and looking down field where your turn in is going to be. Don't lock on here, but make sure to keep your eyes not looking too close in.

2. The concept newer riders have for late braking is to brake later than the same turn on the previous lap, but they almost always end up over braking for corner, fearing the extra speed the carried into the corner. The concept of braking at the same point as on the previous lap, but lighter initially, allows a rider to cary more controllable speed into the corner. I.E. you're able to set your entry speed much easier by not trying to late brake/ panic brake. Eventually, you'll get a feel for how you can use your front brake lever to pressure the front end and tire into the pavement. THAT is what riders are talking about when they're talking about front end feel on entry and THAT is what makes a rider fast.

One story: several years ago as a racer who was getting faster, but stuck on the fear of entries (and having the podium level riders smoke me into the corners), I asked an old time top 5 plate racer how to get good front end feel...and I was really upset about this whole thing, to the point where it was grand frustration. His answer stuck with me forever:

"Corner entries are the LAST thing you'll learn and master in racing/ track riding. Just work up to it and make sure to not fuck up your exits with whatever you do on your entries. You'll get it and when you do, it'll click...THEN push your entries for more time".

It took a few years after that for it to really click, but when it did, it's magic and it's easy as could be. The word for what I feel when it's perfect: Front end pressure.

Anyway, you can modulate speed slower/ quicker with the front brake lever. Try messing with it at the next trackday. ProTip: that front brake lever pressure does not have to be constant. If you want to beat someone to the apex who's next to you in a braking zone, you can let out some lever and cary more speed into the apex when you're well into the braking zone too...etc, etc.

YMMV, report back and let us know your experience(s)! Have fun Monday!

:thumbup :love

 

[stangmx13]

corner entries are the last thing to master because they are the hardest and most important thing. without a perfect entry, your apex speed and your exit speed must be slower. u can def go plenty fast even with shit corner entries, maybe all the way to mid-pack Expert in club racing. but after that, you gotta start generating front grip and gaining lots of turning with the brakes. if u don't, u crash. if u do, and do it well, u can get a lot closer to pro lap times.

corner entry is 95% of what I work on at the track.

 

[Slow Goat]

Thanks guys. I understand using the brake to “set” the front on entry (100 points of grip etc) and how that can impact corner speed and (to some degree) lean angle.
Just have to overcome the tendency to roll out of the throttle before braking.

 

[stangmx13]

Thanks guys. I understand using the brake to “set” the front on entry (100 points of grip etc) and how that can impact corner speed and (to some degree) lean angle.
Just have to overcome the tendency to roll out of the throttle before braking.

100pts of grip does not apply to the front tire. u actually need to brake to increase front grip. thats y pros get into a corner so much faster than u at a speed that would cause u to crash... with their knee on the ground, while on the brakes, while not crashing. forget that over-simplification for track and racing. just focus on what Ken Hill was teaching.

 

[Killin_ix]

This thread is what I need. Like the OP, I've been stuck this past season working on getting quicker in the corner and not over braking.

Love the Barf educational here.

 

[Slow Goat]

Thanks guys. I understand using the brake to “set” the front on entry

u actually need to brake to increase front grip.

Right. That’s what I was trying to get across. Thanks, Robert. And thanks Holeshot.

 

[tzrider]

Something more fundamental than how much brake you're carrying into the turn is that you miss apexes in several corners. It doesn't happen everywhere, but where it does happen, you're pretty consistent about it. Can you tell the difference between corners where you're hitting the apex and ones where there is room between you and the curb?

 

[Holeshot]

Something more fundamental than how much brake you're carrying into the turn is that you miss apexes in several corners. It doesn't happen everywhere, but where it does happen, you're pretty consistent about it. Can you tell the difference between corners where you're hitting the apex and ones where there is room between you and the curb?

FWIW, there will always be 6-12" of pavement between the apex and the rider for almost all riders, up to mid pack (and even some podium ones) and about the same, if not more pavement on track-out at their extreme edge of their exit.

Most riders aren't familiar or comfortable running things right to the edge, I've found...and most don't even know they're that far out/ off until the see a video of it. I suspect it has to do with their preconceived notion(s) of where the bike and they are on the track, when their perception is actually, about 12" off or so. I also suspect these riders leave that 12" as their safety margin, not knowing their bike nor have enough experience at a higher pace.

 

[tzrider]

FWIW, there will always be 6-12" of pavement between the apex and the rider for almost all riders, up to mid pack (and even some podium ones) and about the same, if not more pavement on track-out at their extreme edge of their exit.

Understood. I'm interested in the ones where there is almost enough room to pass him on the inside.