Conscious Countersteering

[Enchanter]

do u even lift
I’m pushing the front every corner

Are you sliding the front tire, or am I the only one that reads pushing the front as a understeer?

k, exaggerating makes it easier to convey the idea that im stiff on inside arm and it pushes me wide

Sounds like you found your problem. This isn't about pointing the front tire into the turn (bs), it's about you loosening your inside arm and allowing the front end of the motorcycle to do what it was designed to do: turn.

 

[Smash Allen]

Are you sliding the front tire, or am I the only one that reads pushing the front as a understeer?



Sounds like you found your problem. This isn't about pointing the front tire into the turn (bs), it's about you loosening your inside arm and allowing the front end of the motorcycle to do what it was designed to do: turn.

I think understeer may be more accurate, but I don’t see the difference between loosening my inside arm and pointing the tire into the turn. Loosening my inside arm will let the tire point into the turn, right?

 

[MapleRoad]

Wait, holdon, noob question here: I usually have a little pressure on the inside/lower handlebar as I take corners. I'm on streets, and I'm not blasting through at track speeds.

Did I do something wrong? What should I consider/correct as I'm riding?

 

[Enchanter]

I think understeer may be more accurate, but I don’t see the difference between loosening my inside arm and pointing the tire into the turn. Loosening my inside arm will let the tire point into the turn, right?

Understeer is a slide. Is that what you mean? Your front tire is sliding?

While we agree that loosening your arm will allow you to use the steering head to place the bike where you desire. We completely disagree on where the front tire is pointed.

I do not support the notion that at some point in a turn that the front tire must actually point into the turn to cause the bike to turn more.

I think that your stiff arm is preventing counter-steering from taking place directly (pressing on the bar) or indirectly (peg-weighting, body position, head position, etc.).

 

[rcgldr]

If the steering angle is not exactly correct for the speed and turn radius you're at, the lean angle will change.

I’m pushing the front every corner

As tzrider notes, if the steering angle isn't correct for a turn, the lean angle changes. If the lean angle isn't changing, and you're going wide in turns, and not falling over in the process, then you're not leaning enough or you are starting turns too late to take those turns properly.

 

[tzrider]

Smash, that's too big a miss to attribute to pushing the front or even that maintaining bar pressure is the cause. I think fundamentally you don't have an apex reference point, may be looking into the turn too late and are just not steering accurately enough.

Relaxing your inside arm once you set the lean angle is a good thing for lots of reasons, but this is a visual problem. Fix that and the apexes will get a lot more consistent.

 

[Maddevill]

As an added point, I found when racing that if you keep your OUTSIDE arm relaxed, the bike will hold a much tighter line effortlessly. If you find yourself running wide, try to consciously relax the outside arm. Often you'll find yourself diving for the apex.

Mad

 

[stangmx13]

I do not support the notion that at some point in a turn that the front tire must actually point into the turn to cause the bike to turn more.

I think that your stiff arm is preventing counter-steering from taking place directly (pressing on the bar) or indirectly (peg-weighting, body position, head position, etc.).

no one really said that or meant that. the bike isnt turning more by allowing the front tire to reach its intended steering angle. the bike is turning its intended amount, the amount that matches the countersteer that was applied.

to be as specific as possible, the front tire must point inwards from the countersteer to turn at all. this is fact.

if the front tire stayed pointing where it does at maximum countersteering, ud fall over. that much is obvious. there are some turns where the tire reaches a very small negative steering angle at steady state, ie it points outwards a tiny bit. but those turns are not the norm. i think those turns become more common at very high lean angles, but im not sure. for most turns, especially if we include street riding, the tire ends up pointing inwards with 5deg or less.

a stiff INNER arm comes form pushing on the inside bar. so it isnt going to prevent countersteering. its going to over-countersteer. your last paragraph doesnt make sense.

 

[stangmx13]

here's a screen grab from friday practice round 5

isnt that where u finally left off the brakes? and of course, u need to apply some inside arm pressure if you are still braking.

there are a million reasons why u could be missing apexes. one thing i try to do when i struggle with a specific turn is compare it to a turn that im doing well. do i brake more or less in the turn im doing well? do i turn in earlier or later? do i turn in aggressively or slowly/smoothly? etc.

im intrigued to see the vid.

 

[Smash Allen]

Smash, that's too big a miss to attribute to pushing the front or even that maintaining bar pressure is the cause. I think fundamentally you don't have an apex reference point, may be looking into the turn too late and are just not steering accurately enough.

Relaxing your inside arm once you set the lean angle is a good thing for lots of reasons, but this is a visual problem. Fix that and the apexes will get a lot more consistent.

I think I have references, I was having a hard time hitting them. I agree the problem is likely fundamental and vision related. Maybe I should suck it up and wear my glasses? I’m near sighted

isnt that where u finally left off the brakes? and of course, u need to apply some inside arm pressure if you are still braking.

there are a million reasons why u could be missing apexes. one thing i try to do when i struggle with a specific turn is compare it to a turn that im doing well. do i brake more or less in the turn im doing well? do i turn in earlier or later? do i turn in aggressively or slowly/smoothly? etc.

im intrigued to see the vid.

Incidentally my fastest lap was the standing lap from the start

youtu.be/fl7qDqXVXpw

 

[Enchanter]

A stiff arm doesn’t necessarily mean that additional (countersteering) force is being applied to the bars. Just locking ones arm in position can prevent countersteering with either arm.

Leaning on a locked arm will cause pressure to be applied to the bar (adding lean).

He’s locking his arm in position and by connection, locking the steering head in position preventing directional changes.

I agree with tzrider that he first needs to ensure his eyes are in the right place.

 

[Enchanter]

I think I have references, I was having a hard time hitting them. I agree the problem is likely fundamental and vision related. Maybe I should suck it up and wear my glasses? I’m near sighted



Incidentally my fastest lap was the standing lap from the start

youtu.be/fl7qDqXVXpw

Opinion only, not advice:
You place your motorcycle farther to the outside of the apex than I would. This appears to be in every corner. I initially thought you were describing a specific corner. Maybe I read wrong.

 

[stangmx13]

A stiff arm doesn’t necessarily mean that additional (countersteering) force is being applied to the bars. Just locking ones arm in position can prevent countersteering with either arm.

in this case, it does actually. the bars want to turn back to center to point in a more positive direction, and potentially point inwards. so if the arm is stiff, its resisting that motion. resisting that motion is the same as applying pressure to the bars, even if the source of the force is the bars moving themselves. in turn, this is pointing the tire outward from where it wants/needs to be, which is the same as "adding" countersteering.

it is possible that hes not countersteering strong enough or far enough. but the vid shows his turn-in rate and his lean angles. both looks fine. so his countersteer strength and magnitude are also fine. ive seen his vids before so I kinda assumed this would still be the case. his stiff inner arm is not causing a lack of countersteering. the problem is elsewhere.

 

[stangmx13]

I think I have references, I was having a hard time hitting them. I agree the problem is likely fundamental and vision related. Maybe I should suck it up and wear my glasses? I’m near sighted

Incidentally my fastest lap was the standing lap from the start

u managed to hit more than half the apexes at least once. so this likely isnt a technique problem. its an execution problem. u can ride well, u just aren't doing it every corner and every lap.

IMO...
step 1 - stop missing apexes. go to a trackday and ride as slow as u need to so that u hit ALL of the apexes. u need to unlearn all these bad reference points and lines. it'll be easier at a slower speed.
step 2 - repeat step 1

the worst thing u can do at this point is continue to "practice" missing apexes, esp in a race situation.

getting to the apex is mostly caused by 3 things.
- how fast and hard u turn in
- where/when u turn in
- how deep and how hard u brake
these 3 things don't match up for u. u are turning in slowly, which works great if u turn in early (earlier than u are) and use the brakes harder and all the way to the apex. but u aren't doing those other 2 things. so u end up wide. I suggest u improve those 2 instead of trying to turn in faster.

 

[Smash Allen]

That makes me feel good, as abs was enabled and my lever was maladjusted and hitting my knuckles, preventing me from getting to max braking. I didn’t feel like I was ready to turn in when I wanted, as my speed felt too high.

I have the most experience at Thunderhill and thus my bad habits follow me there. Sonoma next week will be better, thanks for the input Robert et al

 

[stangmx13]

plz tell me you've turned the ABS off finally?!?! so many people have reported how terrible ABS is on track. I couldn't imagine riding with it. this whole convo about your riding might be meaningless because of the ABS.

 

[Smash Allen]

plz tell me you've turned the ABS off finally?!?! so many people have reported how terrible ABS is on track. I couldn't imagine riding with it. this whole convo about your riding might be meaningless because of the ABS.

Yes I removed the abs block and ran new lines direct from caliper to master, and installed brembo 19rcs. Enough was enough, I am one that learns by doing, and I learned that abs sucks, just took me five rounds to realize it...

I still have vision issues and stiff arms, so this convo hasn’t been meaningless imo

 

[tzrider]

I still have vision issues and stiff arms, so this convo hasn’t been meaningless imo

Smash, if you're nearsighted and not wearing corrective lenses, start by putting on your goddamn glasses. :laughing

Lest this sound too simple, a rider is only as good as his visual skills. A lot of riding barriers live there.

 

[sanjuro]

nope. thats all in your head. you are more comfortable using body position. but it is no way required to initiate a change in lean angle. u might be surprised how fast I can get around a racetrack without moving my head or butt and inch. I do it often for cool down laps after races cuz im tired.

Well why do riders lean over at all? If bar input is the only important factor of cornering, then why shift weight?

Are you discussing what a beginner might do vs an expert? I like to think I'm an intermediate when it comes to skill level, and several things make a difference, like more bar input.

My issue is not that I am ignoring my bars or don't believe in countersteering, but rather not focusing on the bars.

 

[stangmx13]

Well why do riders lean over at all? If bar input is the only important factor of cornering, then why shift weight?

Are you discussing what a beginner might do vs an expert? I like to think I'm an intermediate when it comes to skill level, and several things make a difference, like more bar input.

My issue is not that I am ignoring my bars or don't believe in countersteering, but rather not focusing on the bars.

I didnt say weight shift is not important for cornering. I said its not important important (not required) for changing lean angle. there will never be any corner where u must shift your weight to get the bike to reach some lean angle. weight shift's effect on the motorcycle's lean angle is tiny. for most riders, that effect can be ignored.

weight shift is important for cornering because it increases the effective lean angle of the motorcycle & rider combo. the motorcycle's lean angle is mostly set by the bar input. the lean angle of the motorcycle/rider combo is then determined by the moto's lean angle, how far the rider is hanging off, and their relative masses and positions.

these 2 concepts apply to all riders of all skill levels.

as an expert track rider, its one of my goals to minimize bar inputs, not add more.