Conscious Countersteering

[sanjuro]

I've noticed that I don't consciously countersteer when I ride, and after a chat with a long time rider who recently took a beginner course and recognized the value of countersteering, I decided to consciously push on the bars. I can't tell if I'm much faster in the turns, but I feel like that I am leaning further over.

I understand the concept of countersteering, but maybe I was taking it for granted because of my bicycling experience. Since they are both 2 wheeled vehicles, the physics of initiating wheel leans are the same, but since a bicycle is typically under 30lbs, handlebar input is not as critical as motos to initiate leans.

But I wonder if I haven't been countersteering enough, and if it is slowing me in the turns.

 

[stangmx13]

I can’t see how the amount of countersteer would have any direct effect on corner speed. Maybe it’s an indirect effect through rider confidence, maybe not. Your speed was set by how much u decided to brake. Whether or not you made the corner was determined by that and the amount of lean angle produced by your countersteer. I’m oversimplifying a lot, of course.

 

[tzrider]

I think it's mostly rider confidence too, but there are plenty of situations where your entry speed to a turn is gated by how quickly you can get the bike turned.

 

[motomania2007]

How quickly the motorcycle turns is directly related to how much you push on the handlebar...

Maybe the "speed" you are referring to is how fast your bike flops into the turn.

 

[295566]

Anyone who rides a motorcycle/bike more than 10-15 MPH in more than a straight line is countersteering. People put wayyyyyy too much thought into it; it's really not that complicated.

I'd be willing to bet there's little to no difference in your technique, you're just more acutely aware of what you're doing now. If you are, in fact, going more quickly it would be because of increased rider confidence rather than technique.

 

[sanjuro]

After reading your comments, I feel I am improving my technique, being sure to put more input into my grips rather than just use body shifting.

 

[DataDan]

Try this: On a familiar road at a comfortable speed, try delaying turn-in a little longer than usual and consciously countersteer to quickly lean the bike to where it needs to be.

This will show tzrider's point about confidence in getting the bike leaned. Not coincidentally, it will also duplicate my aha! moment long ago coming to understand Keith Code's emphasis on getting the bike steered quickly.

 

[sanjuro]

Try this: On a familiar road at a comfortable speed, try delaying turn-in a little longer than usual and consciously countersteer to quickly lean the bike to where it needs to be.

This will show tzrider's point about confidence in getting the bike leaned. Not coincidentally, it will also duplicate my aha! moment long ago coming to understand Keith Code's emphasis on getting the bike steered quickly.

Confidence is certainly part of the issue, but I wonder if improved technique will lead to more confidence.

 

[kurth83]

I also started as a cyclist, and learning to conciously countersteer transformed my riding for the better.

Mostly because cyclists use a combo of body weight and countersteering, and the body weight component is much less effective on a motorcycle, which left me unprepared to countersteer correctly.

When I began to commute on 17, it wasn't working for me, I posted on BARF within a day or so of struggling to manage my lines and learned to conciously countersteer the same day after getting a chorus of replies all telling me I needed to countersteer better. It was night and day difference for me. The whole ride home was practicing countersteering and being amazed at how much better it was.

You can validly conclude that I didn't really know how to properly countersteer a motorcycle before, maybe you do, and there is nothing to be learned here for you, but in my case there was.

And for me, the most dramatic difference was at high speeds, I was comfortable up to 45 mph, which was my top speed (downhill) on a bicycle, but at freeway speeds on sweepers the bicycle skills didn't translate well.

The instant flick by pushing the bars was also new to me, very useful on 17.

 

[stangmx13]

another important thing about counter steering is that the technique doesn't end when u "push left, go left". theres so much after that first instant of applying force that needs to be skillfully accomplished to master turning a motorcycle. ive met plenty of riders that have no clue what happens next and what they should do to make things easier for them.

 

[tzrider]

Confidence is certainly part of the issue, but I wonder if improved technique will lead to more confidence.

It frequently does.

As people discover countersteering as a deliberate act, they usually find that they can steer the motorcycle with much more precision than they were previously. They can turn it exactly where they want, at the rate they want and by the amount they want. To the extent that is an improvement over what they were doing before, they usually do feel more confident.

 

[jmann]

another important thing about counter steering is that the technique doesn't end when u "push left, go left". theres so much after that first instant of applying force that needs to be skillfully accomplished to master turning a motorcycle. ive met plenty of riders that have no clue what happens next and what they should do to make things easier for them.

Your posts are always informative! Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts here. Now, I’d like to know what should happen next? Please tell...

 

[kurth83]

Go read the other active thread on countersteering vs body steering, it's got a lot of good stuff in it.

 

[stangmx13]

Your posts are always informative! Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts here. Now, I’d like to know what should happen next? Please tell...

It depends so much on the corner and your riding that its hard to say exactly what should happen next. if I had to simplify, your next 'action' will fall somewhere between 'stop countersteering entirely' and 'continue to apply some countersteering force to the bars until the apex'.

 

[HeatXfer]

I believe 'Conscious Countersteering' helps smooth transitions, gives the rider more control and makes them more aware of what they're doing. :2cents

 

[tzrider]

When you want the bike to stop changing lean angle, stop applying pressure to the bars.

It's exactly that simple, but the location in the turn will vary, depending on how you dealt with the turn entry. If you turned the bike quickly, you'll release pressure on the bars relatively soon. If you trailed the brakes in and tipped the bike in more slowly, you'll release bar pressure later.

With either approach, once the lean angle is set, begin slowly rolling on the gas and the bike should hold its lean angle without bar pressure.

Some bikes try to change lean angle as you hit large mid corner bumps. You can minimize that tendency by locking on with your outside knee, as high as possible against the side of the tank.

 

[EastBayDave]

When you want the bike to stop changing lean angle, stop applying pressure to the bars.

It's exactly that simple, but the location in the turn will vary, depending on how you dealt with the turn entry. If you turned the bike quickly, you'll release pressure on the bars relatively soon. If you trailed the brakes in and tipped the bike in more slowly, you'll release bar pressure later.

With either approach, once the lean angle is set, begin slowly rolling on the gas and the bike should hold its lean angle without bar pressure.

Some bikes try to change lean angle as you hit large mid corner bumps. You can minimize that tendency by locking on with your outside knee, as high as possible against the side of the tank.

^^^^ :hail

 

[stangmx13]

When you want the bike to stop changing lean angle, stop applying pressure to the bars.

It's exactly that simple, but the location in the turn will vary, depending on how you dealt with the turn entry. If you turned the bike quickly, you'll release pressure on the bars relatively soon. If you trailed the brakes in and tipped the bike in more slowly, you'll release bar pressure later.

says "its exactly that simple", then lists exceptions

its not that simple. it takes time for the bars to point the way they want and for the bike to gain lean angle. so a rider may want to stop applying pressure to the bars BEFORE they reach their intended lean angle. this is easily noticed when performing aggressive turn-ins without the brakes. if said rider doesn't stop applying pressure before they reach their lean angle in these situations, they will gain more lean angle than intended.

for braking while leaned, there are plenty of instances on a track where the bike has stopped changing lean angle, but im still applying pressure to the bars. that pressure has nothing to do w/ timing or gaining lean angle. we could even call it something other than counter steering. its just another exception.

 

[sanjuro]

While I believe the other parts of my handling, body position and corner entrance, are adequate, I wonder if I was making it harder for myself by not actively countersteering.

I have sufficient body lean but if I am not initiating enough tire lean, then I cannot corner as fast. By actively countersteering, I am able to get the proper tire angle and I can take corners more aggressively.

 

[stangmx13]

While I believe the other parts of my handling, body position and corner entrance, are adequate, I wonder if I was making it harder for myself by not actively countersteering.

I have sufficient body lean but if I am not initiating enough tire lean, then I cannot corner as fast. By actively countersteering, I am able to get the proper tire angle and I can take corners more aggressively.

can u explain what u mean by this? "proper tire angle" isnt a commonly understood term.