Are E-bikes more dangerous than motos??

J

jwb

Well-known member
Matty D said:
Uh, some people know how to brake in emergencies in or on all kinds of vehicles, and some don't. That's issue 1.

E-bikes can go faster, but even if we're talking about the same speed they are harder to stop because they are heavier, and many (like most of the rideshare bikes) don't have great brakes. Some people know that and some don't. That's issue 2.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there on e-bikes with both issues. They don't know what they're doing on any bike AND they don't understand how to safely ride the bike they're actually riding.
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The difference between a 20-pound ordinary bike and a 50-pound electric bike is not relevant to the kinetic energy of the bike-rider system which is dominated by the rider, not the bike. You're talking about a difference of maybe 20%.

In any case, think about the poor, neglected topic. Are electric bicycles more dangerous than motorcycles? Clearly they are not on the basis of either mass or speed.
 
M

Matty D

Well-known member
jwb said:
The difference between a 20-pound ordinary bike and a 50-pound electric bike is not relevant to the kinetic energy of the bike-rider system which is dominated by the rider, not the bike. You're talking about a difference of maybe 20%.

In any case, think about the poor, neglected topic. Are electric bicycles more dangerous than motorcycles? Clearly they are not on the basis of either mass or speed.
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2.5X is not relevant? Okayyy... But yeah, we've gotten derailed.

I'll bite: What is more "dangerous"?

Sure, motos will always be more dangerous (to the rider and others) in terms of ultimate potential for death and mayhem. But isn't something with a greater frequency of incidents - even if most incidents are not as ultimately harmful - also dangerous? :dunno
 
DannoXYZ

DannoXYZ

Well-known member
Not to mention that bicycles have rubber-pads on rim-brakes that's meant for 15-20mph. Doesn't matter how heavy e-Bike is, if it's going +35mph, that's way more than those brakes can handle.
 
M

Matty D

Well-known member
Yeah, even cheaper e-bikes have cable-actuated disc or at least drum brakes. They're not great but better than rim brakes in most cases, especially if its wet.

Better quality e-bikes use hydraulic discs. E-mountain bikes are starting to come with bigger rotors too, for better stopping power.
 
J

jwb

Well-known member
Matty D said:
Yeah, even cheaper e-bikes have cable-actuated disc or at least drum brakes. They're not great but better than rim brakes in most cases, especially if its wet.

Better quality e-bikes use hydraulic discs. E-mountain bikes are starting to come with bigger rotors too, for better stopping power.
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Now there's something the bike industry really should steal from the motorcycle industry. Bike hydraulic disc systems don't have the power and especially the feel. I can perfectly feather a motorcycle disc brake, it feels great and stops hard with two fingers only. On a bicycle it's pretty binary, I'm either stopping or not, squealing is universal, and the feel is the same as a kitchen sponge. Plus if I stop hard enough I'll break a spoke or just snap the fork off.

I don't know what the deal is there, maybe to get the right feel you have to have master and slave cylinders that weigh three pounds or something. But again not really an e-bike specific problem. If we were worried about lousy brakes someone would have to come and impound my KLR.
 
M

Matty D

Well-known member
jwb said:
Now there's something the bike industry really should steal from the motorcycle industry. Bike hydraulic disc systems don't have the power and especially the feel. I can perfectly feather a motorcycle disc brake, it feels great and stops hard with two fingers only. On a bicycle it's pretty binary, I'm either stopping or not, squealing is universal, and the feel is the same as a kitchen sponge. Plus if I stop hard enough I'll break a spoke or just snap the fork off.

I don't know what the deal is there, maybe to get the right feel you have to have master and slave cylinders that weigh three pounds or something. But again not really an e-bike specific problem. If we were worried about lousy brakes someone would have to come and impound my KLR.
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You can't really generalize about bicycle brakes any more than you can generalize about motorcycle brakes.

Weight is definitely a key driver and the trick is to find that balance between necessary stopping power and relatively light weight. But still, the most popular brakes (Shimano and SRAM) have better feel, modulation, and stopping power than what you describe.

You can also cheap out with stuff that won't do as well, or go full pimp and pick up some of these: https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-ge...-of-the-trickstuff-direttissima-4-pot-brakes/
 
justanotherg20

justanotherg20

Well-known member
jwb said:
Nobody knows how to panic-brake going downhill, not on any bicycle or motorcycle and not in any car either. These are the same hypotheticals people use to nay-say autonomous vehicles: what will it do when it is driving 100 MPH in a whiteout blizzard and a mattress falls off a truck in front of it? Did you think of THAT?

The answer is that a person in this situation will panic, hit the guard rail, flip over, and die.

Same thing for your hypothetical: anyone who panics on the brakes going downhill on a two-wheeled conveyance is certain to crash.
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An autonomous vehicle likely would not be driving 100 MPH in a whiteout blizzard, which is sort of my point but I worded it poorly - let me start over:

I remember reading a discussion forum somewhere else that scooter riders absolutely, positively believed that 50cc scoots are safer than motos because lookit them, they're adorable and cute and can't hit freeway speeds. Since they're safer (because of reasons) scooter riders obviously don't need to wear protective gear, never mind that if you hit the ground and slide, the pavement doesn't care if you fell off a moto or scooter.

Someone on here had a sig which went something along the lines of, "superior riders use superior judgment to avoid situations requiring superior skill."

So I think e-bikes can easily be low key dangerous because Joe 13MPH doesn't see it as something that can potentially put him in a dangerous situation. It's a freakin' bicycle, how dangerous can it be? If he's lazily pedaling along at 13, then all of a sudden with a pedal assist he's lazily pedaling along at 20, then he (anecdotally, from what I've seen on the roads) starts weaving in the bike lane around regular bikes who are now slow and holding him up, starts taking risks to power through yellow lights with his new SUPER SPEED BIKE and starts putting himself in situations where he'll need to rely on superior skills and hoping his brakes are up to the challenge.
 
J

jwb

Well-known member
justanotherg20 said:
An autonomous vehicle likely would not be driving 100 MPH in a whiteout blizzard, which is sort of my point but I worded it poorly - let me start over:

I remember reading a discussion forum somewhere else that scooter riders absolutely, positively believed that 50cc scoots are safer than motos because lookit them, they're adorable and cute and can't hit freeway speeds. Since they're safer (because of reasons) scooter riders obviously don't need to wear protective gear, never mind that if you hit the ground and slide, the pavement doesn't care if you fell off a moto or scooter.

Someone on here had a sig which went something along the lines of, "superior riders use superior judgment to avoid situations requiring superior skill."

So I think e-bikes can easily be low key dangerous because Joe 13MPH doesn't see it as something that can potentially put him in a dangerous situation. It's a freakin' bicycle, how dangerous can it be? If he's lazily pedaling along at 13, then all of a sudden with a pedal assist he's lazily pedaling along at 20, then he (anecdotally, from what I've seen on the roads) starts weaving in the bike lane around regular bikes who are now slow and holding him up, starts taking risks to power through yellow lights with his new SUPER SPEED BIKE and starts putting himself in situations where he'll need to rely on superior skills and hoping his brakes are up to the challenge.
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Ok but I'm pretty sure, I'm gonna triple-check, but I'm fairly sure already that the topic is "Are E-bikes more dangerous than motos??" not "Are E-bikes more dangerous than other bicycles??"
 
Killroy1999

Killroy1999

Well-known member
To add, most mountain bikes and road bikes in bike shops are equipped great hydraulic disk brakes. No issues.

My motorcycle brakes feel clunky compared to my mountain bikes.
 
justanotherg20

justanotherg20

Well-known member
jwb said:
Ok but I'm pretty sure, I'm gonna triple-check, but I'm fairly sure already that the topic is "Are E-bikes more dangerous than motos??" not "Are E-bikes more dangerous than other bicycles??"
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And my answer is that they can be, because people might not respect how fast they go.

Ask pretty much anyone if motorcycles are dangerous. Even we'd say yeah, they have the potential to be and that's why you hear of ATGATT culture, 'dress for the slide,' situational awareness etc. etc.

Ask average people if bikes are dangerous and they might look at you funny. Bicycles? Six-year olds ride bicycles, how dangerous can they be? A bicycle that can go 45+ MPH (1)(2)(3)? Sure, sounds fun. Still doesn't seem dangerous to Joe 13MPH who bikes around the neighborhood with his kids because hey, they're just bicycles.

I'll have to remember to look the next time I'm out and about but I don't think even half the Bay Wheels riders wear helmets.
 
S

sk8norcal

Well-known member
justanotherg20 said:
Ask average people if bikes are dangerous and they might look at you funny. Bicycles? Six-year olds ride bicycles, how dangerous can they be? A bicycle that can go 45+ MPH (1)(2)(3)? Sure, sounds fun. Still doesn't seem dangerous to Joe 13MPH who bikes around the neighborhood with his kids because hey, they're just bicycles.

I'll have to remember to look the next time I'm out and about but I don't think even half the Bay Wheels riders wear helmets.
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those ebikes u listed are not legal ebikes.
 
J

jwb

Well-known member
justanotherg20 said:
And my answer is that they can be, because people might not respect how fast they go.

Ask pretty much anyone if motorcycles are dangerous. Even we'd say yeah, they have the potential to be and that's why you hear of ATGATT culture, 'dress for the slide,' situational awareness etc. etc.

Ask average people if bikes are dangerous and they might look at you funny. Bicycles? Six-year olds ride bicycles, how dangerous can they be? A bicycle that can go 45+ MPH (1)(2)(3)? Sure, sounds fun. Still doesn't seem dangerous to Joe 13MPH who bikes around the neighborhood with his kids because hey, they're just bicycles.

I'll have to remember to look the next time I'm out and about but I don't think even half the Bay Wheels riders wear helmets.
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And yet, nobody has ever died riding the bike share. Only two people have ever died riding citibike in New York, and both of them were run over by trucks which has basically nothing to do with the kind of bike they were riding.

I don't think that people who order an illegal e-bike online are going to be unaware of its power. They're buying it on purpose.

This whole discussion reminds me of how my mom likes to say "donor cycle". You are my mom in this scenario.
 
M

Matty D

Well-known member
There is no answer until we define "dangerous". There are probably more bike accidents than moto accidents on the roads, and more bike accidents that involve other people, but those bike accidents are also probably less severe/deadly than most moto accidents. So what's more dangerous, a lot more minor accidents, or fewer serious accidents?

:dunno
 
Killroy1999

Killroy1999

Well-known member
justanotherg20 said:
And my answer is that they can be, because people might not respect how fast they go.

Ask pretty much anyone if motorcycles are dangerous. Even we'd say yeah, they have the potential to be and that's why you hear of ATGATT culture, 'dress for the slide,' situational awareness etc. etc.

Ask average people if bikes are dangerous and they might look at you funny. Bicycles? Six-year olds ride bicycles, how dangerous can they be? A bicycle that can go 45+ MPH (1)(2)(3)? Sure, sounds fun. Still doesn't seem dangerous to Joe 13MPH who bikes around the neighborhood with his kids because hey, they're just bicycles.

I'll have to remember to look the next time I'm out and about but I don't think even half the Bay Wheels riders wear helmets.
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I have been a bicycle commuter to work for a long time and I have received so many lectures on how dangerous it is to ride a bike. Its not like I'm riding a donor- cycle :laughing

At the same time, you are right, some people think bicycles are just toys for kids.

A common mistake for a driver see a bike rider and assume that there speed is Zero like a mail box and when they think they have passed them they are in fact side by side.

EBikes can keep up with traffic, so if the bike rider is not "taking the lane" when appropriate, then car divers may miss judge there speed more severely.

My friend is a strong bike rider and he was riding on a Specialized Turbo ebike FAST. A car pulled out from a stop in front of him and he hit the back of the car hard enough to punch his hand through the tail light.
 
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