450 Triple or SV 650?

[The Villain]

Hey there, AFMers. Thinking about joining up. I used to be a racer too, with the departed Moto West GP (RIP) and briefly also with the departed WSMC (RIP)...basically, I race with your club and it goes down in flames - you've been warned.

I'm strongly considering getting back into the fray with AFM, maybe later this season, or more likely next season. But I'm undecided on which bike to use!

I used to run an SV650 but it was just stolen. By the way, if anybody sees any suspicious SV parts on Ebay or SoCal Craigslists (Elka shock with a blue Hypercoil spring, FCR carbs, Leo Vince pipe...seafoam green wheels), let me know.

I was originally going to shop for another SV, but with the strong 450 presence up here I'm wondering about this whole Cripple Triple thing (yeah, I know that's offensive, what can I say...Villain).

So like the title says, how competitive are the 450s against the SVs and vice-versa? And furthermore, how "new" of a 450 does one need to run to be competitive against other 450s?? I'm noticing a lot of R6's in the triple ranks and have heard that some people are getting 85hp out of them. Are older GSXRs or CBRs getting eaten alive? I'm looking for a fairly low-priced buy-in.

I'll have other questions but let's start there. No wrong answers, this is exploratory, feel free to talk trash at each other.

 

[synfinatic]

Both are legal for Formula IV and things like F40-LT, but there are other classes that only one or the other is legal for (650Twins vs 450SB), so worth doing a little homework.

If you look at the lap times by the guys up front, you'll see they're pretty close although last time I checked the SV's owned the fastest laps. How much of that is bike vs. rider I'll let you decide.

Originally the cripple triple was conceived as a low cost racing option... get an old GSXR, drop a cylinder and go racing with a modern chassis & brakes. No need of front end swaps, swapping out the rear wheel to run race rubber, etc. More lately though you've got people starting to drop real money by getting a modern R6 and building a motor. ~85HP sounds about right from what I've been hearing. I don't think anyone has even bothered trying a CBR- wouldn't be competitive at all IMHO. My impression is that the people looking to keep costs low are using GSXR's and the people who've got the $$$ are moving to the R6 since they can make more HP.

That's not to say that there aren't some people who have put ungodly amounts of $$$ into their 650Twin:

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417358

and of course myself with:

https://synfin.net/sock_stream/racing/duzucati

In both classes, fast guys on "slow" bikes are beating the slow guys on "fast" bikes and fast guys on fast bikes are beating fast guys on slow bikes.

Honestly, the biggest difference is the the motor and it's power delivery. Do you want a small tractor or something really peaky? Used bikes for both classes come up pretty regularly here on BARF and are generally much cheaper then building your own and race prepping it.

you can find laptimes here: https://speedhive.mylaps.com/Organizations/280994

 

[afm199]

What he said.

I prefer the turbo tractor for sheer fun, but I do ride a pair of GSXR's.

 

[Shaggy]

I love my R4.5.

I paid $4500 for an already race prepped 2006 R6 and converted it to 450cc in my garage. The parts list was excellent with Ohlins fork internals, Ohlins shock, full exhaust, PC5, etc... The only thing I did to it was let Gerry straighten it out and change the tires. It earned me a few trophies last year for Clubman and Novice classes.


**Also moved to AFM Forum at OP’s request

 

[Old Bike]

Let's see the R6 hasn't changed in the last eight years so you have a few to chose from. The current Jen GSXR is competitive. CBR I'm not sure. The ZX6 I think has potential. If I was to make a return I would go with an R6 or a ZX6 . Personally I wouldn't build an R6 motor unless you have the budget for regular rebuilds. Not much left on the floor in the stock motor . I'm pretty sure the 450 grid is still bigger than the SV grid so more people to play with.

 

[The Villain]

On those Franken-Ducati options...wow. I wish. I especially like your idea, Syn, as I've ridden a friend's old 1098 on track and found myself thinking, "You know what this needs? My SV motor." Guess I'm not the only nutter out there. But not gonna do it. Definitely probably not gonna do it.

Old Bike makes a good point -- if the grids are bigger in 450 that makes it more attractive to me. But how much of that grid is the "Keep it Cheap" gixxer riders and how much is heavily tuned R6's? I know, the rider ultimately makes a lot of the difference but it would be nice to not be completely out-gunned by half the grid.

As for which style of bike I'm more comfortable on, I tend to like narrow twins more than wide i4's. And I also came up track riding and racing old, soft bikes (like the EX500!). My buddy who used to tune R6's would love it if I went that route, but man, that chassis is so aggressive! That being said, if I could find a deal like Nick did...

So modern 600's are more out of my comfort zone, BUT I'm pretty sure my development as a rider is being stunted by not getting used to a modern sportbike...maybe I should just rip the bandaid.

How old a gixxer can still run a decent pace in the 450 pack? Let's assume for the sake of argument it has a competent pilot.

 

[Old Bike]

Let's see the R6 hasn't changed in the last eight years so you have a few to chose from. The current Jen GSXR is competitive. CBR I'm not sure. The ZX6 I think has potential. If I was to make a return I would go with an R6 or a ZX6 . Personally I wouldn't build an R6 motor unless you have the budget for regular rebuilds. Not much left on the floor in the stock motor . I'm pretty sure the 450 grid is still bigger than the SV grid so more people to play with.

 

[Old Bike]

I ran a 2001 GSXR and was way off on power .She was also heavy . I think the 2011 GSXR on up would put you in the ball park . Going from a flexy flyer to even the 01 was a huge jump for me . The lack of movement really unnerved me .Took a few seasons to get comfortable.

 

[dangeranger]

Most of the cripples are in the 70-75hp range.
One person crippled a fully built R6 race motor last year and was able to get 85hp out of it, and it was substantially faster than the other bikes.
While the newer R6 is the most popular option for cripples, the current 450 lap record for Sonoma was set last year on a first gen r6, so that should tell you something.
The current Thunderhill record was set in the 1:58s on a newer GSXR that's currently for sale on here. I was able to get within a tenth of that on an 07 R6 with a stock motor and relatively cheap suspension upgrades.
So while the newer bikes may have a significant advantage as a full 600, when you cripple them it becomes a much more even playing field for the older bikes as well.

Like others have said, the 450 vs Sv battles are fun, but when it comes down to it, the fastest guys on the fast SVs have the lap records over the 450s. However for the average riders it's a pretty good battle.

A couple of people have also crippled CBRs, and an earlier ZX6R. I think there's one person working on a new ZX6R for this season

 

[Old Bike]

Yep that GSXR for sale is a runner .

 

[thedub]

Originally the cripple triple was conceived as a low cost racing option... get an old GSXR, drop a cylinder and go racing with a modern chassis & brakes. No need of front end swaps, swapping out the rear wheel to run race rubber, etc. More lately though you've got people starting to drop real money by getting a modern R6 and building a motor.

People paying money to go faster in racing, who could have predicted that would happen. :laughing

 

[Martin]

Go SV :thumbup

 

[peterhively]

OK, you wanna know the deal? Here's the deal.

SV650 riders are cool, well adjusted individuals. They are fast and handsome and good guys to know.

450 Cripple Triple riders are, well, umm, just a little bit off! And don't get me started on FZ-07 riders!!!

:laughing:laughing:laughing

Good luck this weekend everyone, have fun, be safe and I'll see ya at Sonoma if not sooner. :ridearty:ridearty:ridearty

Peter

 

[Shaggy]

Wrong! I have it on good authority that Ryan Reynolds and George Clooney both race 450 triples, while Steve Buschemi and Willem Dafoe both race SVs.

Just what I heard...

 

[The Villain]

^ Uhh, that definitely makes me want to go SV. Who wouldn't want to line up against Dafoe? I probably belong with the scary-toothed posse.

This is all really good info. I think my next step will be to come spectate a race and see things up close. Maybe at some point I'll even see if i can throw my leg over a triple.

How often are you budget 450 guys running through tires? I was generally squeezing 5 events out of a rear on my SV, part of the wallet-friendly appeal.

 

[The Villain]

Oh, also, can someone link me to the GSXR you're talking about? I'm not seeing it in either classified section.

 

[dangeranger]

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523981

As far as tires go, I've always raced on take offs, so I can't say how long a new rear would last. A decent rear take off could probably get me through 2 weekends of Saturday practice and racing though as long as I took care of it and flipped it properly. I was usually doing trackdays in between rounds though so I wasn't the best at tracking how long they'd last, and obviously some were better than others when I got them.
I will say though, racing a 450 on takeoffs and being competitive is very possible if you're trying to keep costs down. The hard part is finding quality take offs. For as long as tires last on the 450s though, the tire budget really isn't too bad compared to the other bikes.

I run Pirelli and pretty much always ran SC1 front and rear for reference.

 

[Old Bike]

Rear would last half the season front would last the season . Pirelli SC1s

 

[Mick-e]

As for which style of bike I'm more comfortable on, I tend to like narrow twins more than wide i4's. And I also came up track riding and racing old, soft bikes (like the EX500!)

Well then. I have a buddy that's looking into selling his Kawasaki 650. It's well kitted but the motor is all stock.

 

[The Villain]

Well then. I have a buddy that's looking into selling his Kawasaki 650. It's well kitted but the motor is all stock.

Hmmm. Shoot me his contact info or have him PM me. It's probably a little early for me to pull the trigger on a purchase but I'd be interested in learning more...

So it sounds like pace, tire economy, cost and support are all pretty comparable between the SVs and the Triples:

Slight advantage to the SVs in terms of price of used race bikes (especially curvy/carb'd ones), ability to slot into dedicated classes with other race orgs, and that I'm already comfortable on the platform.

Advantage to the 450s in availability of machines, size of the AFM grid, and the ability to easily switch back to a 600 should I ever feel like racing against suicidal teenagers.

I'll probably end up going with whichever platform pops up the right deal at the right time, though a ride on a 450 may be necessary to seal my opinion of the Triple option one way or the other.

Thanks for the replies, everyone!