2015 Anti-Lane Splitting Bill (Assembly Bill 51)

[MrIncredible]

You can scream until your red in the font-face, but people are always going to ride with sandals on, and smack mirrors while lane-splitting. Its not a nice practice to begin with. Anyone that doesn't ride hates the fact that we can move through traffic and they have to wait in line in their cars.

I actually I don't mind sitting in traffic while others split past me. I do mind my mirror being smacked. That's not acceptable.

I'm just gonna put this out there and see where it lands;

I don't know you metrorollah, I don't know if we've ever crossed paths and who knows, maybe we have a lot in common, but the more you post in this thread the less likely it is that I'll ever support ABATE if you are an example of that organization. This thread was your chance to gain support for ABATE and instead I find myself turned off by your rhetoric and vitriol. We don't don't have to agree on everything or even much to gain my support, I mean hell, I even joined the AMA a couple of years ago after a lifetime of motorcycling... But I don't see any reasonableness coming from your posts. I see someone who draws a line and tells people 'it's my way or the highway. ' And that sir, is no way to gain support for your cause.

+1.

 

[metrorollah]

I mean hell, I even joined the AMA a couple of years ago after a lifetime of motorcycling... .

Twice this year I appeared in American Motorcyclist as a Member Tested guest writer. Maybe you should cancel that membership. :rolleyes

... I see someone who draws a line and tells people 'it's my way or the highway. ' And that sir, is no way to gain support for your cause.

Our cause(s).

www.abate.org (California)
www.abate.com (Ohio)
www.abatesc.com (South Carolina)
www.abateflorida.com (Florida)
www.abate-wa.org (Washington)
www.abatewis.org (Wisconsin)
www.abateofindiana.org (Indiana)
www.abate-il.org (Illinois)
www.abateiowa.org (Iowa)
www.abateofmichigan.org (Michigan)
www.abatemn.org (Minnesota)
www.abatepa.org (Pennsylvania)
www.abateofmd.org (Maryland)
www.abateofcolo.org (Colorado)
www.abateny.org (New York)
www.arkansasabate.org (Arkansas)
www.dixieabate.org (Alabama)
www.cmtabate.com (Tennessee)
www.abateofoklahoma.org (Oklahoma)
www.abatetexoma.com (Texas)
www.cba-abatenc.org (North Carolina)
www.abateoflexington.com (South Carolina)
www.abateks.org (Kansas)
www.abatend.com (North Dakota)
www.abateofalaska.com (Alaska)
www.gardenstateabate.org (New Jersey)
www.delawarevalleyabate.com (Delaware)
www.abatega.org (Georgia)
www.abateoflouisiana.org (Louisiana)
www.abateofnorthidahobikers.org (Idaho)

This is an incomplete list.

 

[Surj]

...people are always going to ride with sandals on, and smack mirrors while lane-splitting. Its not a nice practice to begin with. Anyone that doesn't ride hates the fact that we can move through traffic and they have to wait in line in their cars.

Categorically not true. In my work with both CityBike and LaneSplittingIsLegal.com, I've talked to many drivers who are ok with lane splitting but not at high speeds, and not when someone clips a mirror. The CHP and OTS support lane splitting—and neither of those organizations is comprised mostly of motorcylists.

We should not treat assholish behavior as "the way it is" and just accept it because we can't "turn on each other." The actions of a few affect us all.

Ok, let me get this straight... so you take issue with me calling Quick a "miserable cager" (cager being a very typical motorcyclist term to describe a non-rider) but you think its ok to call other riders "such fucking assholes?" Your "way of thinking" is not pro-rider, by my definition.

Yep, and it's easy to understand why. I've said this publicly and in print before—continually calling drivers "cagers" creates an us-versus-them mentality that doesn't help. This very attitude, and the fact that many people in ABATE are behaving in a more BOLT-esque, extremist, us-versus-them way that is very light on facts and thinking, and heavy on yelling is—again—why I don't give money to ABATE any more.

Since you brought up ABATE in other states, I'll point out that in my experience, ABATE is quite different state-to-state. I've spoken at length with members of Illinois ABATE, for example, and your "we can't turn on each other" statements remind me a case where Illinois ABATE did exactly that. They had what one member referred to as a "stunting problem" where stunting on public roads was hurting the motorcyclist community, so they spoke out against it in the media in a coordinated way. AKA "turned on each other," which I understand was quite effective.

Look... it sucks that we keep having to deal with bills on lane splitting, whether you are willing to accept that we as a community contribute to that or not. But here's the thing—it's very unlikely we'll stop seeing such bills. In Quirk and AB51 we have what appears to be a sympathetic legislator who—whatever you say about miserable cagers butting into things they shouldn't worry about—seems to be genuinely looking to do something good for motorcyclists.

Why not take this opportunity we have now to work with him to get a bill "we can live with" (James Lombardo's words) that codifies lane splitting and removes the gray area, and thereby makes it harder to outlaw, instead of trying to save lane splitting when a legislator who is NOT sympathetic proposes a bill that simply outlaws splitting.

If you think strategically and logically, it's easy to see that the above are probably our two most likely options. We're way past not talking about lane splitting and hoping no one notices.

I care very little whether I'm pro-rider by your definition. My definition of pro-rider includes taking thoughtful, sensible steps to keeping lane splitting legal.

 

[budman]

Jason

I too feel that asshole riding in traffic has created a huge issue for motorcyclist.

I hear it on the committee I sit on from those that don't ride. I hear it on the committee from the people that do ride. I hear the impact from CHP officers that prefer we do it..

I hear it from friends who don't ride... I hear it from my wife!

The difference of being an asshole in the hills or on the coast is the amount of people affected are not huge. Sure we piss of some tourists.. and yeah.. call me an asshole because I will pass you when I need to. However I am not putting that person at risk of having / being involved in an accident.

Most of what I call responsible riders hooligan behavior occurs far from view of population masses. Not in the middle of a commute that they are in day after fucking day.

I respect your right to feel like you do.. and my right to feel like I do is cool tool.


Surj is very pro-rider man. I have met both of you guys and know you both love to ride and care about the rights to do so. Different angles on a similar plane of caring.

I think most of us agree..

1. Defeat the bill.
2. If that does not look likely work with it to our benefit.
2.2 To me that means raising the stupid 35MPH limit.. we have a law that covers reckless and dammit motorcycles can split at higher speeds respectfully using the speed differential. ( I know a large group of riders are OK with the 35 speed - I am not ).

If you really do care about ABATE and your freedoms.. IMO you should not discount what Boney said. You will need guys like Boney and Budman and Surj when shit hits the fan. :teeth

Carry on guys.

 

[tuxumino]

I think we need both metrollah's and surj's point of view. We definitely want to be at the table when bills are being discussed and having the "reasonable motorcyclists" there to represent us gives us more input to the process and gives a greater chance of a favorable outcome. On the other hand politicians don't like to be on the wrong side of a group of angry voters and metrollah's MRO can bring that kind of political pressure to bear.

yes we all squid it up sometime but we have to recognize that riding like an asshat can present the non-riding public (miserable cagers) an image that doesn't help us and gives politicians a chance to write legislation to contain our hooliganism.

 

[metrorollah]

IMO you should not discount what Boney said. You will need guys like Boney and Budman and Surj when shit hits the fan. :teeth

Dennis, I really don't appreciate all the blame-related arguments coming from some of the people involved in this discussion, online and print. It wasn't appropriate for the former CityBike editor to blame certain people or organizations for bringing this matter to the public discourse, and it wasn't appropriate for the current editor to blame other bikers for riding in a way that allegedly caused this bill to be written.

I am not here today, nor have I never been here in the past, to draw people across Boney's metaphorical highway line. IMHO ABATE does not need constant disagreement and dissension within it's ranks, or any dilution of our purpose. Our meetings are held in private, and we are a strong, unified organization with clear political agenda that and techniques that work. We have our own newspaper as well. This is the last post for me on this topic. I will update the OP with progress reports only.

 

[mlm]

Kind of a self-assessment, but the most "asshole-ish" thing I do when splitting is filtering to the front of a stoplight and having the light change before I get there. Cross traffic concerns acknowledged, it's usually when I speed up to get clear.

All of the above is "within the guidelines", but when I asked my wife she agreed it is annoying. I consider myself a courteous driver and generally try to avoid this, but have come to realize that the "annoyance" is more perception by cagers as the same behavior doesn't bother me (moto zipping by).

I have to side with Jason/metrorollah. Passing legislation isn't going to reconcile people's sensibilities. THEY need to get over it.

 

[budman]

I get ya Jason.

Do what you do man. Fight the good fight. :cool

 

[GAJ]

...and it wasn't appropriate for the current editor to blame other bikers for riding in a way that allegedly caused this bill to be written.

Are you dismissing the idea that motorcyclists are capable of upsetting other motorists by their behavior resulting in legislative proposals to reign them in?

Didn't the open carry folks jump the shark in CA by their behavior resulting in legislation reigning THEM in?

From 2011:

"California became the fifth state to prohibit openly carrying handguns in public after Gov. Jerry Brown announced Monday that he had signed the ban into law late Sunday night amid heavy opposition from gun enthusiasts.

“Main Street California is not the Old West, and you don’t need a gun to buy a cheeseburger,” Portantino said. Top California law enforcement groups, including the California Police Chiefs Association and the Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department, supported the legislation."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/10/10/california-bans-open-carry-of-handguns/

 

[Z3n]

I have to side with Jason/metrorollah. Passing legislation isn't going to reconcile people's sensibilities. THEY need to get over it.

:laughing

Seriously? Just look at smokers. Look at speed limits. Open carry. Expecting other people to get over your shitty behavior just gets it banned eventually. But if that shitty behavior is already banned, while allowing the good behavior to continue onward...

Don't fucking force it until we get crushed. It's myopic.

I don't know you metrorollah, I don't know if we've ever crossed paths and who knows, maybe we have a lot in common, but the more you post in this thread the less likely it is that I'll ever support ABATE if you are an example of that organization. This thread was your chance to gain support for ABATE and instead I find myself turned off by your rhetoric and vitriol. We don't don't have to agree on everything or even much to gain my support, I mean hell, I even joined the AMA a couple of years ago after a lifetime of motorcycling... But I don't see any reasonableness coming from your posts. I see someone who draws a line and tells people 'it's my way or the highway. ' And that sir, is no way to gain support for your cause.

Well said.

I think most of us agree..

1. Defeat the bill.
2. If that does not look likely work with it to our benefit.
2.2 To me that means raising the stupid 35MPH limit.. we have a law that covers reckless and dammit motorcycles can split at higher speeds respectfully using the speed differential. ( I know a large group of riders are OK with the 35 speed - I am not ).

If you really do care about ABATE and your freedoms.. IMO you should not discount what Boney said. You will need guys like Boney and Budman and Surj when shit hits the fan.

Carry on guys.

What makes you think we'll get the chance to do takesbacksies after we've opposed bill on bill on bill on bill, even the reasonable ones, supported by the CHP and other state organizations? Each time you oppose reasonable bills for the sake of opposing bills, you allow them to build larger and larger groups to overcome the "unreasonable motorcyclists". Support reasonable bills, because the outcome protects motorcyclists by clearly safe and prudent legal limits on the majority of lanesharing, and otherwise we risk going the way of other groups of antagonistic assholes who insisted on "exercising their rights" until they got them taken the fuck away. Ref: Open carry.

Dennis, I really don't appreciate all the blame-related arguments coming from some of the people involved in this discussion, online and print. It wasn't appropriate for the former CityBike editor to blame certain people or organizations for bringing this matter to the public discourse, and it wasn't appropriate for the current editor to blame other bikers for riding in a way that allegedly caused this bill to be written.

I am not here today, nor have I never been here in the past, to draw people across Boney's metaphorical highway line. IMHO ABATE does not need constant disagreement and dissension within it's ranks, or any dilution of our purpose. Our meetings are held in private, and we are a strong, unified organization with clear political agenda that and techniques that work. We have our own newspaper as well. This is the last post for me on this topic. I will update the OP with progress reports only.

Please don't ever claim to represent all motorcyclists, as it is very clear that you represent a minority of motorcyclists who are strongly devoted to unreasonable saber rattling against even well reasoned discourse around motorcycle safety and adoption as a means of transportation. You don't represent me or anyone in my peer group, and your extremism and childish political grandstanding is actively detrimental to the motorcycle community in the long run.

It is completely appropriate for motorcyclists to call out shitty behavior within their ranks. If you run into mirrors, if you split in a fashion that makes other users of the roads (that they too pay taxes to use...) feel unsafe, all motorcyclists should be united in calling out that terrible behavior as a community that both polices and keeps its own safe.

 

[mlm]

...
Please don't ever claim to represent all motorcyclists...

Good advice

Edit: BTW, my point was that any law on lane splitting isn't going to change the minds of people already opposed to it.

it's also worth calling out that open carry remained on the books for decades until the proponents thought the status quo wasn't good enough. In other words, it wasn't your every day hasshats that got the restriction, it was the people who thought they could make the law 'better'

 

[moto-rama]

:laughing:laughing:laughing

You're giving yourself too much credit, man. While you are certainly one of the people who say stuff like "anti-lane splitting bill" you're not alone and you're certainly not breaking new ground.

"Mr. Gish has no taste for "sword-rattling", but does have a taste for negotiation." I have no taste for bullshit, and the extreme position you took initially smelled and tasted of such. Have you even spoken to your lobbyist? I have, and I daresay he's closer to my position than yours, at least your initial position.

"How about stop blaming lane-splitters for bills limiting lane splitting." You simply cannot deny that the minority that split like assholes contributed to bills about lane splitting. Seriously.

"You need to rethink your rider magazine's role and consider that your attitude should be pro-rider." Sorry to do this again, but this deserves another :laughing. CityBike is absolutely pro-rider. That doesn't mean we support assholishness just because motorcycles are involved.

It's silly to say things like "stop blaming the rider community for the war that we didn't start" when certain members of the "rider community" actually do bring this sort of thing down on the rest of us.

As previously stated in this very thread, stuff like this that you (and others) say is a perfect example of why I no longer give money to ABATE.

Well said.:afm199

 

[budman]

@Z3n

I hear you on the law being acceptable and not getting a other shot.

Laws do change for good and bad. I don't like the proposed law. Acceptable to some and too severe for me. If it was 10mpg SD and 55mph I would take that. We all have our acceptable numbers for it and I believe we do all want to protect it.

 

[Z3n]

@Z3n

I hear you on the law being acceptable and not getting a other shot.

Laws do change for good and bad. I don't like the proposed law. Acceptable to some and too severe for me. If it was 10mpg SD and 55mph I would take that. We all have our acceptable numbers for it and I believe we do all want to protect it.

The problem is that there is no reasonable basis for those speeds - the studies, previous guidelines, and public opinion (as well as the opinion of many motorcyclists) think those speeds are unreasonable. Lane splitting, within the bounds of 35/10, is as safe as riding as normal motorcycle riding, and has additional benefits for other commuters - less congestion, etc. At 55/10, it's pretty much a lost cause, higher risk, higher consequences. This isn't a law that's about us, I know that I can easily handle 55/10, it's about the relationship and compromise between us and other users of the road.

35/10 is very reasonable, considering the laws take into account not just experienced riders but brand new riders, not just alert, attentive drivers, but someone's 90 year old grandfather who won't give up the keys and a 16 year old who just got their permit. We're not going to get better than 35/10, no one's going to willingly sign off on enabling higher risk behavior due to the liability that is going to entail for them. No one wants to be the guy that killed that kid because they passed a high risk lane splitting law.

Understanding that we're never going to get better than that, understanding that this will protect riders who lane share at safe and prudent speeds from ignorant officers, insurance companies, and the public who believe it's unsafe at any speed - this is a law we should be throwing full support behind. It's a sane, reasonable law, that would hopefully one day give us support and data to back up laws enabling lane sharing nationwide.

That is something worth fighting for.

 

[budman]

There is nothing but logic in what you wrote.

No doubt.

I will succumb when I need too. Until then I love being illogical and that includes riding. :teeth

 

[rodr]

Understanding that we're never going to get better than that

I think we can do better. There's more in there besides speed limits. It makes a lot more sense for us to support this law if we get something in return. As I stated earlier:

If Quirk wants to "codify" lane splitting then the language should be changed to something that makes sense. The now-defunct CHP guidelines are not a good model because they try to work within existing law. If you're gonna change the law then do it right.

In particular: as I noted before, when splitting riders *do* cross the line often according to car positions, and this is to increase safety. This needs to be acknowledged and the crap about "entirely within a single lane" and "in the same lane" needs to be removed.

 

[budman]

Good point Rod. :thumbup

 

[Z3n]

There is nothing but logic in what you wrote.

No doubt.

I will succumb when I need too. Until then I love being illogical and that includes riding. :teeth

Trust me man, I love my illogical, hilarious motorcycle too - there's no way that thing should be legal. :laughing

Just keep an eye out for the day where we're going to lose more than we gain by holding ideology over reality. :thumbup

I think we can do better. There's more in there besides speed limits. It makes a lot more sense for us to support this law if we get something in return. As I stated earlier:

That is a good point, and something that would definitely be worth raising as a well reasoned, salient point on modifications to the laws.

 

[revnort]

Trust me man, I love my illogical, hilarious motorcycle too - there's no way that thing should be legal. :laughing

Just keep an eye out for the day where we're going to lose more than we gain by holding ideology over reality. :thumbup



That is a good point, and something that would definitely be worth raising as a well reasoned, salient point on modifications to the laws.

I think many of us agree that having the law is preferable to having the practice outlawed. Some people take a harder line out of the gate, and there is room for both opinions. I tend to agree this law is a bit too restrictive, and like you said, the illogical moto should be outlawed by all logical reasoning...it's too much fun.

My problem is I don't agree it is only those we deem as being the assholes causing the anti splitting opinion. I have had certain non riders tell me I flew by them on the bridge "doing 80" when I know for a fact I was well within a reasonable delta. IN fact I don't think I was going no more than 40 and traffic was at around 30ish. Perception is a bitch, and that will not change no matter what law is put in place.

It is possible to split outside of those guidelines safely. However it needs experience and not a hand-holding law.

Some people just think it is dangerous and they don't like feeling they have to look out for us. Truth is that any regular splitter knows they can't rely on cars. I worry about the reaction of both motos and cars when being within the guidelines (falsely) removes some of the onus on the moto to be prepared.

Many of us will have to sink to the level of "safe" for the rest, and frankly I don't see it stopping there, once it happens and the car at fault lawsuits happen. Some riders may stop building up the experience needed to split within the law's rule and just go for it because it's legal to do so. Yes that is jaded, but I feel it is true.

 

[mlm]

My guess is that the average cager doesn't like lane splitting because it doesn't seem safe and they're likely pissed and or startled when a bike passes them. I doubt they give a shit about speed differentials, or what's really safe. For them its TL;DR, motorcycles are dangerous, and it's not fair.

Tell a politician he'll be pissing off a block of voters is enough for them to drop it. Bring it to the attention of voters is the worst thing you can do. If half of them think it's illegal you can count on that being their vote.