Smash Allen
Banned
If you are trailbraking and go straight from 5%-0% at once, that is more likely to lose the front, than if you are off the brakes from turn-in. Same if you are trailbraking at 5% and go straight to 20%...
weight on foot pegs
- Thread starter jacob11379
- Start date
jacob11379
Banned
Braking is done as smooth as i can. I dont necessarily let go at 5% im just saying im down to 5% by apex.
Now with that said my transitions are not nearly as smooth and consistent as i would like. I would say if the track has 10 turns, half of them I realize I could have done something better! And as i pick up speed, braking, trying to find best lines i might flip flop some of those turns.
While I dont count on it, I do at least have some forgiveness due to not being really fast. As my speed increases, EVERYTHING else needs to get better as well.
And this is mainly why I say I can go fast but dont feel comfortable doing so. As my room for error decreases im actually increasing error and muscling the bike....Not to mention imposing my danger to other riders.
Practice. with a little instruction. and some reading on here has already helped me understand some things.
I should be good to go by the end of this season if not sooner....The hard part for me is I am owner/operator of an HVAC company and the best time to be riding at the track im working 12 hour days nonstop with no break in sight!...SO this year im going to try and schedule my track days and just schedule around it! Be some mad people but I need to live my life....But the flip side is my wife answers the phones and she will end up taking the brunt of it while im gone...
stangmx13
not Stan
It all depends on the corner, but 20% at turn in can be pretty low. U won’t get the forks compressed with that and the bike isn’t going to turn the same as it would for a faster rider and their setup.
If u are tipping the bike in slowly and smoothly adding lean angle, 70% at turn in is likely acceptable. It depends on your setup and the turn. But u really can load the front tire.
If u are flopping the bike on your knee, quickly adding lean angle, 20% brake pressure is a lot better. There’s less time to trail and u are asking for more grip to flop, so u can’t brake as hard.
Of the above two entry methods, the correct one is whichever is faster. I have yet to find a corner that require braking where flopping the bike is faster. The extended braking zone and the lesser decreasing radius just isn’t worth it
What people tend to gloss over is that you can’t really run the same line off the brakes as on the brakes. Your lowest speed in the corner will be in a different place with the two approaches, but the bike will sustain the same lowest speed either way, unless the line is whacky.
stangmx13
not Stan
Yes the successful line must be different, hence the crash. But the lowest speeds need not be the same. If running an ideal entry, the lowest speed must be lower for the off the brakes line. Cambered tires are not load sensitive like car tires, so grip is higher when applying load. And with more grip, u can go faster or accomplish more turning. So when u finally let off the brakes, u can be turning less and going faster. Or, if u aren’t nearing max speed for any of that, u get a larger safety margin.
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Can you clarify the above? What do you mean by load sensitive and why would cambered tires not be?
stangmx13
not Stan
Sry, a slight typo made that part confusing
Load sensitivity is the concept where a tire’s coefficient of friction changes with load. Generally, a car tire’s coefficient decreases with load all the way to the point where extra load equals no more friction.
Motorcycle (cambered) tires do not show this same load sensitivity. It might be that the decrease in coefficient is very small. I personally believe that motorcycle tires actually increase their coefficient slightly because the contact patch grows noticeably. But data is very hard to find. The best I have right now is an FSAE paper where someone put motorcycle tires on a formula car.
khill
Well-known member
I have issue with this statement and it I can almost guarantee it will be read as - "I won't lose the front if I don't use the brakes" It also doesn't take into account different speeds and different radius' and blankets all riders and corners together.
IME, the #1 crash I see is:
An improper braking technique entering a corner (off the brakes too early) having positive acceleration and then adding lean angle to achieve the desired trajectory.
Hands down the #1 crash I see.
So yes, you absolutely can lose the front off the brakes in a corner.
Ken
The point is that being off the brakes is not the cause of losing the front.
khill
Well-known member
My point is the #1 reason for the crashes I see, starts with being off the brakes entering a corner.
Ken
Your first and second "#1 causes" aren't the same thing. Acceleration and adding lean angle, I can agree with.
khill
Well-known member
Sorry, I'm looking at the entire sequence as a whole. The effect of being off the brakes in a corner is the #1 cause I see riders crash - may be a better way to state it.
jacob11379
Banned
No brakes, No throttle, engine drag. Does that load the front tire at all?
Coasting at max lean angle is not optimal for traction at the front. Whether trailbraking or not, the rider can improve traction and stability by getting back to the throttle and slowly rolling on as soon as he is at his deepest lean angle, is off the brakes and the bike is pointed. This takes away both weight and some lateral load from the front (the bike is leaned over).
jacob11379
Banned
Turn 2 at T-Hill
Can you describe your braking and throttle on this turn?
I do understand brake to apex throttle out. Some turns i dont make it to apex on the brakes. Turn 2 is one of them. would be great to understand how other riders take this turn.
I have seen A riders do almost a second apex prior to straightening out, sort of fading to outside of track toward the end of turn.
khill
Well-known member
Here's a good video that shows throttle and brake data that may help answer some questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoFL-BJ3kv0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoFL-BJ3kv0
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I don't brake to the apex either. I'll begin turning in a little later than Ken did in his video and will trail off the brakes pretty quickly, as I turn the bike fairly quickly there. I treat it as a double apex, getting to the throttle before the first apex and allowing the line to bulge out a little bit mid corner. Approaching mid corner, I'll stop rolling on or even roll off slightly, and tighten the line to re-point to the second apex. Once re-pointed, I'll resume rolling on prior to the second apex.
jacob11379
Banned
I feel that the information on these lap timers could significantly increase my understanding of how im riding.
Aim Solo 2 DL....Is there any places that BARF supports for the purchases of motorcycle products?
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Aim Solo 2 DL....Is there any places that BARF supports for the purchases of motorcycle products?
I would like to support BARF through purchases if applicable...