Reanimating a greybike RVF400 (NC35)

[Krooklyn]

Sure, but I would guess that if someone's cheaping out on a tool, they're likely not going to spend money to get it calibrated. Additionally, my personal experience, more often than not, is that you get what you pay for with precision pieces.

The Park Tool torque wrenches are actually fairly good and are used by a lot of people in the moto world. Let's be honest - very few people outside engine builders actually get their torque wrenches calibrated with any sort of regularity.

 

[295566]

The Park Tool torque wrenches are actually fairly good and are used by a lot of people in the moto world. Let's be honest - very few people outside engine builders actually get their torque wrenches calibrated with any sort of regularity.

I didn't mean any offense. I guess I was just pointing out comedy in the juxtaposition between using lab grade cleaner and a budget torque wrench.

 

[RVFRick]

Oof, all this attention to detail, ultrasonic carb cleaning, full disassembly... then put back together with a cheap Taiwanese torque wrench? >.<

FWIW the Park wrench costs $120. The upper limit of what I'd like to spend. The ultrasonic cleaner was made in China and free. Does that mean the carbs are dirty or clean? ::shocker

If it's reasonably accurate, why does it matter how much it cost or what country it came from? It tightens bolts the same way as an expensive wrench.

I agree. Bashing based on country of origin is lazy. There's a spectrum of quality regardless of origin. Likewise "branding" - caveat emptor.

Actually, he gets points for even using one......

Anthony recommended it otherwise I would have skipped it The RVF isn't a satellite for NASA. They're valve covers which are certain to have some variation in gasket compression force due to frictional differences and if the screw flanks were lubed (mine) or not. The cool thing about rubber is that it can tolerate a range due to its ability to conform.

Question: does Honda recommend oiled or clean threads before torquing?

Sure, but I would guess that if someone's cheaping out on a tool, they're likely not going to spend money to get it calibrated. Additionally, my personal experience, more often than not, is that you get what you pay for with precision pieces.

Somewhat agree but the only way to be sure is to empirically test a wrench at the target setting. I could do this myself with known weights (calibrated of course :teeth) and a vise (calibration not required).

I argue a torque wrench's internal mechanism is simple and, for an amateur mechanic who doesn't use the wrench every day, won't drift or change over time assuming proper storage and care. The internet has many opinions and comparos worth reading and watching if you are inclined.

The Park Tool torque wrenches are actually fairly good and are used by a lot of people in the moto world. Let's be honest - very few people outside engine builders actually get their torque wrenches calibrated with any sort of regularity.

Anthony said the same. I took his word for it. Park has been around forver and have a good reputation dating at least back to my bicycling days in the late 70's. But, honestly, I didn't make the effort to "calibrate" the loaner wrench.

More importantly I screwed up and returned the wrench before doing the spark plugs. Guess I will have either buy my own, or go by feel or by number of turns past finger tight. Hmm, maybe not - my fingers aren't calibrated, I'm Taiwanese, and I'm cheap.

 

[Krooklyn]

Question: does Honda recommend oiled or clean threads before torquing?

Depends. Per the 'Honda Common Service Manual' - It is important to oil the threads of specific fasteners when instructed to do so in the Model Specific manual. Oiling the threads of these fasteners ensures stable fastening tension in critical areas. No other bolts besides those specifically pointed out in the Model Specific service manual text require oil on their threads.

 

[RVFRick]

Depends. Per the 'Honda Common Service Manual' - It is important to oil the threads of specific fasteners when instructed to do so in the Model Specific manual. Oiling the threads of these fasteners ensures stable fastening tension in critical areas. No other bolts besides those specifically pointed out in the Model Specific service manual text require oil on their threads.

Thank you, Sir!

Found this interesting slide deck from Loctite. http://henkeladhesivesna.com/knowle...readlockers-torque-tension-relationship-2.pdf

 

[RVFRick]

S40: Part 2 - Carburetor and Spark Plug Installation

With the insulators in place it was time to reattach the carburetors. I had expectations of the task at hand being uncooperative and requiring more force than I could muster. To ease things I smeared a thin layer of grease over the mating surfaces. I then positioned the carb assembly on top of the rubber insulators and mentally prepared what to do next.

Because the RVF engine is a 90 degree V4 the insulators on the engine point toward each other at a 90 degree angle while the throttle tubes on the carbs are 90 away from each other. All this manes is that when one pair are seated the other will be slightly off axis their home position. Trust me, this makes things a little more difficult than an inline engine.

I decide to split my force direction evenly down the middle of the two pairs of insulators essentially in a straight downward direction. With both hands on the rim airbox bottom plate, I hold my breath and apply downward pressure. Push! Nothing happened. Push really hard. Again nothing. Several attempts and I made no progress. Inspecting underneath I saw the carbs still sitting atop the insulators - with no change. That was a fail. What next?

Maybe it’s better mate two at a time rather than all four effectively halving the force required. I go for the front set of #2 & #4 first because they are harder to visually confirm but easier to install because they are more vertical and I can use gravity and my 175 pounds of pure muscle :laughing to my advantage. I push hard. Nothing. Again but with more of a CPR impulse. Hey, what was that? I look below and it appears the forward carbs have seated into their insulators! It’s a very subtle sensation not a click or hard stop but a smooth vague "thunk". A minor nudge as the rim of the carb throats slip home. Once I again I look below and can indeed see the carbs are seated. Yeah! :thumbup

Now it’s the back two #1 & #3. Slightly off axis since they need to rotate down and slide into the insulators at the same time, I do the CPR impulse push with all my weight and "thunk", they slip home! I can see these two without craning underneath that they are seated. At long last the carbs are home to roost. :thumbup:thumbup They look amazing sitting in their cozy nest. Wanting to practice the maneuver again I remove the carbs and repeat the process in 30 seconds. It’s really not bad once you know how to do it. Fresh insulators are recommended.

With the carbs in place I tighten the clamps that I prepped earlier. I tighten until the screw turn no further. I assume the clamps are bottomed out on their spacers. Next up, spark plugs.

Following the advice of the Haynes manual I cleaned out the plug sockets of any dirt or debris using a long flat blade screw driver wrapped with a rag. BTW I had a better view of the hole that was the source of the oil “staining” I mentioned a few months ago to which a BARFer suggested it was a weep hole. He was correct.

I unpack the petite NGK ER9EH plugs from their Matchbox-like cardboard and confirm their gaps to 0.7mm. Since the plug recess is deep and impossible to access with fingers, Haynes suggests slipping a a small piece of plastic hose over the plugs to lower into the recess and screw in by hand. In this way if cross threading occurs the hose will simply slip and avoid thread damage. I tighten all plugs as tight as the tubing allows. I need to remember to secure the plugs soon before I forget :rolleyes

Damn! I may get lucky and get the engine running today after all. :ride

Next, the cooling system.

 

[Whammy]

I'm night owling with ya.:teeth
Awesome news.
Make sure you get the video camera out and have it rolling for the first fire:thumbup
I cant wait:cool

 

[ScottRNelson]

I'm night owling with ya.:teeth
Awesome news.
Make sure you get the video camera out and have it rolling for the first fire:thumbup
I cant wait:cool

Keep in mind that the current narrative is from April 15th, the day he was hoping to get it running. IF he made his goal, telling him now to video the event is a little late. :cool

 

[Sharky]

great choice to replace the carb boots. If you had that much trouble getting them on when the rubber was new, can't imagine the hardship if they were rock hard.

 

[Krooklyn]

great choice to replace the carb boots. If you had that much trouble getting them on when the rubber was new, can't imagine the hardship if they were rock hard.

From experience it's a pain in the ass. I finally got new boots for my upcoming valve check. I figure ~92K KM is more than enough for the original boots.

 

[RVFRick]

From experience it's a pain in the ass. I finally got new boots for my upcoming valve check. I figure ~92K KM is more than enough for the original boots.

92k km AND the fact that you are on the original boots is impressive.

Has your bike ever required any significant work?

 

[Krooklyn]

92k km AND the fact that you are on the original boots is impressive.

Has your bike ever required any significant work?

Main issue I’ve dealt with were the rectifiers. After I replaced the original with an upgraded version and that one shit the bed a few years later I made the change to the R6 rectifier, which works well. I did the clutch about 10k ago, but that was more pre-emptive than necessity. No other major work. I’m at the point now where I’m a little bored with the bike and would like a second bike, but that has been KO’d by the wifey.

 

[RVFRick]

Main issue I’ve dealt with were the rectifiers. After I replaced the original with an upgraded version and that one shit the bed a few years later I made the change to the R6 rectifier, which works well. I did the clutch about 10k ago, but that was more pre-emptive than necessity. No other major work. I’m at the point now where I’m a little bored with the bike and would like a second bike, but that has been KO’d by the wifey.

Good to know. I've read the RRs don't last on our bikes.

As for wifey, I wait until Jessica goes on vacation then start shopping :cool

 

[RVFRick]

S40: Part 3 - Radiator Reinstall

I was making good progress on the busy anniversary Sunday. It was late afternoon so I felt I still had a shot at getting the bike running.

Valve covers on, carbs mounted, I turned to the radiator I removed in order to perform the valve re-shimming. The radiator definitely had seen better days as it was kinda wavy, many of the fins had collisions with road debris and some sections near the mount points were bent. I decided to try to perform some clean-up and straightening.

I spent maybe an hour with a dental pick and a small pair of tweezers going thru fins one by one. It was tedious yet therapeutic to groom the fragile and super easy to bend fins. For the mounting brackets I used an adjustable spanner to "coax" some crushed sections back to original form as much as possible.

I then went to clean the overflow nipple with a rag which proved useless. So I took a brass wire bristled brush to it and saw the mineral deposits brush off pretty cleanly. I noticed some surface defects and figured perhaps this was the explanation for white crud I saw on the rubber overflow hose during disassembly.

Looking more closely I saw some tiny holes on the tube. I grabbed a dental pick and probed like a dentist looking for decay - sadly I found many defects. Plunging a pick into one of the holes it was easily enlarged to 3mm in diameter. The others were smaller but significant. Crap, the tube was corroded and decaying. Plus this was only the areas I could see and probe. Perhaps the cancer was more extensive. I resigned myself to the fact that the bike would not run that day. Instead I focussed on how to repair the aluminum radiator.

A few ideas that came to mind was JB Weld. A mechanic once fixed my Civic's cracked plastic radiator with the stuff. I thought it was a joke but it lasted over 4 years! I think its epoxy loaded with powdered steel. Amazing stuff :thumbup

I decided to ponder my options rather than rush anything so I closed up the cave for the day and went home. And even though I was short of my goal of running the engine, I had a solid day

 

[Krooklyn]

Replacement radiators on eBay are so cheap now, that if the top one wasn't in good shape I'd just buy one of those and call it a day. Bummer it's got holes. So close...

 

[RVFRick]

Session 41: Aluminum Radiator Repair

Thinking how to repair the radiator holes I thought I’d try solder. Not the stuff used for electronics but something stronger like for plumbing. I picked up some acid core 60/40 (lead/tin) solder from OSH. The packaging even stated it was good for “radiator repairs”. This was going to be easy!

Back at the cave I fired up the torch and applied heat to the overflow tube. I touched the heated area with the solder to test if it was heated sufficienty. At first the solder did nothing as the tube wasn’t’ too cool i.e. not to the melt point of the solder. After 10 seconds the solder melted. Melted into a ball and rolled right of like a water on a duck’s back. Several repeated attempts also failed. Sigh. I forgot flux? I need to try something else.

A Google search turned up a potential lead: low temp aluminum brazing rod. Videos on how to use the stuff to repair giant gaping holes were like magic. I had to try this stuff. So the next day on my way to work I pop into Madco Welding Supplies in MV and explain my predicament. The guy disappears in back and returns with the magic wand - a low temp aluminum brazing rod. Best of all it was free and he wished me luck. Thanks, Buddy!

Back at the cave I prepare the radiator by throughly cleaning the wound site with a stainless wire brush. All shiny and oxide free I fire up the torch and repeat the same process as I did with the 60/40 solder. No flux recommended, with fingers crossed I hoped this stuff works. I am happy to report that it does. Amazing really. :thumbup I've heard aluminum can be very difficult to work with and repair but this was easy. Mind you, when melted it didn’t flow flat and smooth like electronics solder. Rather it was like thick toothpaste, kinda lumpy and stiff. Room temp butter is another way to describe the consistency. Apparently there are lots of different brands of this stuff and I’m not sure which one I had.

Anyways, with the holes patched I figured I would file and sand down the clumsy high spots and make the surface smooth for the rubber overflow hose. The smoothing process went well and started to look decent until I found a few more holes that I had either missed before or had made while heating. Crap the decay was extensive. :mad

Emboldened with my new found brazing skills I thought, no problem. I lit the torch and repeated the process. I easily filled the second set of holes. While I had the torch on why don’t I go back and fill in some low spots from the first repair. That thought should have given me pause. There shouldn’t have been any low spots for the original tube was a fully formed cylinder and only has small holes. Any filing I had done never subtracted that original surface. Had the tube collapsed when I heated it the first time? Just as I was thinking this the torch had been heating the tube with its blast of heat and I saw the tube collapse a bit and then immediately plop in a mashed pile onto my bench. :wtf Fuck. I had over heated the delicate tube and melted it off!! What had started as a 30mm nipple with holes was now a lumpy 10mm tube with no holes. :kicknuts

Yesterday while out running errands for work I happened to be in the neighborhood of many job shops and repair places. Well, kinda close :rolleyes. A few detours to a few places and a couple phone calls and this is what I learned:

Radiator Repair, MV:Can’t do it. Don’t do aluminum go to a precision welder nearby.

Precision Welding MV: Sure we can weld that no problem. But I need to provide a new tube and the min charge is $75 and it has to be aluminum not steel or brass. Aluminum.

Radiator repair, SJ: Over phone call suggested tapping and threading in a hose fitting. This was my original plan but was most invasive plus I couldn’t find a part that was small enough to fit as the nipple is directly next to the radiator’s mouth opening flange. No clearance. He then suggested to JB Weld a tube over the original.

Nams’ Welding , SJ: Nice guy. Said job was too delicate and his torch would melt the thin walls plus there wasn’t adequate room to go all around the tube plus I’d have to supply the part. Suggested JB Welding a tube over the remaining stub.

Machinist friend: Would machine a new nipple sleeve to JB Weld over the remaining stub. Assured me JB Weld would hold. He’d done it on a crank case and it never failed.

There you have it after picking a many brains for ideas everyone has an opinion. My plan is to work with it as is - clean up the truncated tube and mount a proper hose clamp instead of the thin wire loop Honda had used. I argue that the tube isn’t pressurized to 15-17psi like the primary cooling circuit is. It experiences even less pressure and only during overflow.

Anthony and I had a debate about the pressure risk and how a radiator overflow system works. In the end we agreed that as it is it should work fine. Install it and move on. I may go to O’Reilly Auto Parts to borrow a radiator pressure tester (they require a refundable $166 deposit). let's hope nothing else is wrong with the cooling system.

Krooklyn's suggestion for an eBay replacement radiator is an option in case I uncover more nastiness.

p.s. I remembered to seat the spark plugs. Absent a torque wrench I followed the Haynes manual and finger tightened and then used a deep socket wrench and tightened 120 degrees (1/3 of a turn). Thankfully no surprises.

 

[Maddevill]

You get an "A" for effort anyway...

Mad

 

[RVFRick]

Session 43: Rubber Bibs

I went to the cave last night with the goal of installing the radiator. I cleaned off the nipple of any residual metal slag with a jeweler’s file. It’s all round and smooth. I test fit it to the overflow hose and it seems to fit well. 3/8” (9mm) of engagement. It’ll have to do. No hose clamp. Doh! Add to shopping list. Hmm maybe a zip tie would work :rolleyes

Anyways, I pull out the radiator steel mesh guard from my Evaporust bath. It has been soaking for a few days and looks meh. It’s super wambly soft steel and painted silver but some of it flaked hence the rust. I rinse it off and use a stiff nylon brush to clean it up some more. I also press it against the concrete to flatten out the waviness. I wanted to paint it with rattle can silver but I’ll skip it for now. Need to move forward. That done I mount it to the radiator with its 4 Phillips sheet metal screws and 4 bent spring clips. Done. Ready to mount.

It’s been a while since I took the radiator off but I see the stud that it supposed to mount on the right side. On the left there is a screw and flanged spacer that secure the radiator. Right away I notice the nexus of wires and throttle cables in the way. Plus there are some wire guides/clips that I’m not sure which goes with which. I try a few ideas and decide that I should stuff the wiring away first as it’s the bulkiest.

I also see the ugly open wounds of various wires and harness sheathing due to the nasty alarm system I exorcized previously but never patched back up. Perforations in wire insulation can’t be good. I wrap electrical tape around the single wires to make up for the breached insulation. I then use some cool silicone tape to make everything water tight. If you’ve never used silicone tape before you should try it. It’s self-clings and doesn’t ave any adhesive. It’s super stretchy and can tightly bundle stuff together and make them water tight and near gas tight. They make it in black and clear. I have the clear stuff so It’ doesn’t match my wiring looms so I overwrap the wires one more time with black electrical tape for cosmetics. Looks matter you know.

Back to routing. Where to put it? It seems directly behind the headstock. And it’s kinda what I remember. But wait, what’s this? Oh yeah this rubber sheet thing I call the “bib”. It’s a sheet of black rubber maybe 2-2.5mm thick that pins to a gusset behind the head stock and goes down to…two large holes about 50mm in diameter spaced maybe 200mm apart…waitaminute....oh damn. The holes are supposed to fit OVER the cylinder inlets where the insulators for cylinders #2 & 4 but are now blocked by, you guessed it, the carburetors. Groan. I have to remove the carbs again! :mad

I loosen the upper insulator clamps and try to pull off the carb assembly. They don’t budge, of course. Okay I used a pry bar and leverage the first time so maybe I can improve on that. The pry bar part not the leverage. Leverage is good it’s just the prybar is steel unfriendly toward the soft aluminum carb and bike frame. I search my rollaway. It's the fluorescent orange Harbor Freight plastic mallet that catches my eye. Let’s try it - not as a beater to knock the carbs off rather the handle as a beefy, thick and non-marring pry bar. I try it and it’s perfect! Pushing down on the mallet head with one hand and lifting the carbs with my other, plop! They come right off. Hello carbs my old friends :kiss. I’m getting used to this.

I stretch the bib into place and look over everything to make sure no more forgotten items. It all looks good. BTW I think the rubber sheet is intended to protect the carbs from the radiator heat blow thru.

Never one to leave well enough alone I revisit the clamp orientations, maybe there’s a “better” way. I tweak and test and decide I can have all of them accessible from the left unlike my first “edit” where no. 3 was the only one from the right. I double check and approve.

It's time to put the carbs back in. Fronts first, thunk, thunk. Inspect. Approve. Now for the backs. Towel over the carbs to protect hands I impulse push #2, Squish. #4, Squish. Visual check. Both seated. Time to tighten the clamps and one final visual inspection. :thumbup

Okay back to the radiator and wires and cables. One thing for sure is I should connect the ignition wires! The front ones are easy as there is only one way due to the wire lengths. The back wires I labeled during disassembly so I know where to plug them. But hey, there’s a rear “bib” that has holes for the plug wires. I go for the obvious layout and route the wires and plug them to the sparkplug tops. They seat into the recess and cap them off nicely. Just then two fuel vent hoses which were precariously held by the bib fall to the ground. I try put them back and route them. One idea brings them very close to the chain. Can’t be right. The other not sure. Need to do some homework.

I move back up to the radiator and hold it in place while I try to figure out the cables and wiring up front. The best I can figure is the wires stuff and strap to a cross bar just behind the headstock while resting upon the bib which shields the wires from the radiator’s hot air. The wires seem to fit into a wire routing clip and the throttle cable snakes thru a wire pigtail on the radiator. It’s all a guess. I decide to call it a night and do some research. I need a hose clamp anyways so no radiator just yet. Tonight was a few steps forward one step back. Not bad.

 

[pepesm]

Wow, just wow. SO...MUCH...TWEAKING!

 

[RVFRick]

Wow, just wow. SO...MUCH...TWEAKING!

I call it trial by fire. My friend Ted calls it fiddle farting around :laughing