Rattling catalytic converter

Kornholio

Kornholio

:wave
joespeedfast said:
While I don't dis-agree, it's my belief that if the car is either registered in Cali or soon to be, the muffller shop( in my rec. scenario) is on the hook(with BAR) to install the Cali approved(premium quality) caty.
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And I'm telling you I just went through this with a 49-state car a month ago. They installed a 49-state converter.
 
Mr. White

Mr. White

Well-known member
msethhunter said:
Which is why you have no clue what you are talking about. I worked in dealerships for YEARS. You CAN legally sell AND install a cat convertor that is 49 state. But, you have to be able to prove that the vehicle is a 49 state vehicle. There is guidence out there for it, even for getting a convertor in the aftermarket. The link you provided (read your link next time) provides guidence for people looking to #1, purchase an aftermarket cat convertor, and #2, submit for approval to sell an aftermarket cat convertor and the testing requirements it must go through before it's approved.

In the Header of the article posted from your link:



Now, if you go to the proper page, it talks about installing the proper parts on the vehicle by looking at the "Vehicle Emission Control Information" sticker that is usually under the hood, which will guide you to the proper parts for your vehicle. There will be a difference in the sticker between the two 49 and 50 state cars.

And then there is this, a "Q and A" link provided for guidence on how this all works, in simple terms.



So, care to retract your statement about having to install a 50 state cat on a 49 state vehicle? And also about not being able to sell a 49 state cat in CA? The guidence clearly states that that is exactly what you should do. When a web site says "Not for sale in California," That is usually a blanket statement to CYA, so they don't end up getting fined. If you produce the proper documentation that your vehicle is a 49 state car, they will sell it to you if they are worth a shit. And most parts stores are to afraid to have CARB come knocking on their door.

But yes, it is legal, provided the right circumstances.
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I'm a bit confused where you're getting this info. The "new" laws started in Jan 2009. Maybe your dealership days pre-date that? The first paragraph of the link I provided states:

Aftermarket catalytic converters must be exempted from California's anti-tampering laws in order to be legally sold and installed in the state. If an aftermarket catalytic converter is shown to be durable and meets vehicle emission control requirements, it is granted an exemption Executive Order (EO) that allows it to be installed on specific emission controlled vehicles.
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A new aftermarket cat must have an EO # stamped on it that corresponds to the make, year, model, engine of the vehicle that it's installed on. It doesn't matter if it's a 49 or 50-state vehicle.

You guys can do what you want. But there is a very good chance a smog tech will fail the visual inspection if he/she thinks the cat has been replaced recently and it doesn't have an EO # stamped on it that corresponds to the vehicle it's installed on.

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msethhunter

msethhunter

Well-known member
Mr. White said:
You guys can do what you want. But there is a very good chance a smog tech will fail the visual inspection if he/she thinks the cat has been replaced recently and it doesn't have an EO # stamped on it that corresponds to the vehicle it's installed on.
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Did you miss the part where I said to read the links you posted? The links are provided in YOUR links on what to do with a federal (49 state) car, that doesn't require a 50 state cat. Hell, I even quoted it for you.


Likewise, the link you posted is how to go about getting a cat approved for sale in the state that you or I make. In other words, it's the requirement a manufacturer has to go through to get approval. And the links posted has another link for the CVC is for gross polution stuff for cars that have been modified. If you are failed by a smog tech because he says your cat isn't 50 state legal, you could point him the the guidence listed in the link you posted, then point him to the emissions sticker for your vehicle that should clearly state it's a 49 state car. People make mistakes all the time, smog techs included. Hell, I tried to ship two guns recently. I walked into Kinko's to do it, and the guy behind the counter said he couldn't ship guns. I was prepared, and brought with me printed, the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) that said he could, and how they had to be shipped. Imagine the customers that walked in, and turned around and walked out when I was sitting there with a .22 and 20 guage to be shipped. After him consulting his manager, and looking up the regs himself, I shipped them no problem.

Just talk to Kornholio. He knows what to do. He did it, and it was legal. And his vehicle will still pass smog if the technician see's that it's a 49 state car. Why do you think california charges a "smog impact fee" for the first time it's registered here. And on the same token, why do you think it's possible to get that waived if you can prove it's a 50 state vehicle.

Hurry up, pull your foot out of your mouth. You still have time. Read all the links in the page you posted. It's all in there. I don't care what a manufacturer has to go through to get his cat certified for use on a 50 state car. I car about what the technician has to do in order to install the proper part on the proper car.

I can't hold your hand for you. You have to look for yourself. It's perfectly legal to sell AND install a 49 stae cat in California. BUT, it has to be done on a 49 sate car. And how the hell are you supposed to prove that you have a 49 state car to an internet "shopping cart?"
 
Mr. White

Mr. White

Well-known member
Kornholio said:
OEM...as in genuine from the dealer.
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New OEM (Genuine) catalytic converters are 100% legal for use in CA - all of them, regardless of what applications they fit. That "automatically" makes them 50-state legal. OEM cats are not required to get exemption (EO #) from CARB. Think about it...how is it possible to have a 49-state cat legal for CA use? If OEM cats are CA legal, that makes them 50-state legal. The dealer didn't install an aftermarket 49-state cat on your mazda. They installed an OEM cat on our Mazda, and your Mazda happens to be a 49-state vehicle.

msethhunter said:
Did you miss the part where I said to read the links you posted? The links are provided in YOUR links on what to do with a federal (49 state) car, that doesn't require a 50 state cat. Hell, I even quoted it for you.


Likewise, the link you posted is how to go about getting a cat approved for sale in the state that you or I make. In other words, it's the requirement a manufacturer has to go through to get approval. And the links posted has another link for the CVC is for gross polution stuff for cars that have been modified. If you are failed by a smog tech because he says your cat isn't 50 state legal, you could point him the the guidence listed in the link you posted, then point him to the emissions sticker for your vehicle that should clearly state it's a 49 state car. People make mistakes all the time, smog techs included. Hell, I tried to ship two guns recently. I walked into Kinko's to do it, and the guy behind the counter said he couldn't ship guns. I was prepared, and brought with me printed, the CFR's (Code of Federal Regulations) that said he could, and how they had to be shipped. Imagine the customers that walked in, and turned around and walked out when I was sitting there with a .22 and 20 guage to be shipped. After him consulting his manager, and looking up the regs himself, I shipped them no problem.

Just talk to Kornholio. He knows what to do. He did it, and it was legal. And his vehicle will still pass smog if the technician see's that it's a 49 state car. Why do you think california charges a "smog impact fee" for the first time it's registered here. And on the same token, why do you think it's possible to get that waived if you can prove it's a 50 state vehicle.

Hurry up, pull your foot out of your mouth. You still have time. Read all the links in the page you posted. It's all in there. I don't care what a manufacturer has to go through to get his cat certified for use on a 50 state car. I car about what the technician has to do in order to install the proper part on the proper car.

I can't hold your hand for you. You have to look for yourself. It's perfectly legal to sell AND install a 49 stae cat in California. BUT, it has to be done on a 49 sate car. And how the hell are you supposed to prove that you have a 49 state car to an internet "shopping cart?"
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You're missing a very important word in the below quote. Exempted means that's it's already been given a CARB exemption - it means it's already been issued an EO #.

Q. Federal vehicles are not listed in California application catalog. How do I determine what catalytic converter to install on a federal vehicle?
A. Find a catalytic converter exempted for a California vehicle that is of the same make, model, and model year as the federal vehicle, except for the engine family. Install the catalytic converter on the federal vehicle and make a note on your invoice and warranty card that it is a federal vehicle.
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Here's another link with more information. http://www.magnaflow.com/02catalytic_converters/04basics/04california.asp
 
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Kornholio

Kornholio

:wave
Mr. White said:
New OEM (Genuine) catalytic converters are 100% legal for use in CA - all of them, regardless of what applications they fit. That "automatically" makes them 50-state legal. OEM cats are not required to get exemption (EO #) from CARB. Think about it...how is it possible to have a 49-state cat legal for CA use? If OEM cats are CA legal, that makes them 50-state legal. The dealer didn't install an aftermarket 49-state cat on your mazda. They installed an OEM cat on our Mazda, and your Mazda happens to be a 49-state vehicle.
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:rofl

Whatever you say.
 
Kornholio

Kornholio

:wave
Mr. White said:
It not what I'm saying, it's what the law is saying.

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And again, you're still wrong. 49-state converters are legal for use on a 49-state vehicle in this state. You're reading the information wrong. No where in anything you've posted has it been stated that OEM automatically equals 50-state legal. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Many manufacturers still produce 49-state and 50-state vehicles and thus, the OEM also produces TWO different exhaust systems for the same style vehicle. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, not all 49-state and 50-state versions of a vehicle have the same style exhaust system. In many cases, 49-state vehicles have less converters than their 50-state brethren. There's nothing in CARB writ that says a 49-state vehicle owner, who has the vehicle legally registered in California, must modify their 49-state vehicle's exhaust system to fit the 50-state version.
 
Mr. White

Mr. White

Well-known member
Kornholio said:
And again, you're still wrong. 49-state converters are legal for use on a 49-state vehicle in this state. You're reading the information wrong. No where in anything you've posted has it been stated that OEM automatically equals 50-state legal. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Many manufacturers still produce 49-state and 50-state vehicles and thus, the OEM also produces TWO different exhaust systems for the same style vehicle. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, not all 49-state and 50-state versions of a vehicle have the same style exhaust system. In many cases, 49-state vehicles have less converters than their 50-state brethren. There's nothing in CARB writ that says a 49-state vehicle owner, who has the vehicle legally registered in California, must modify their 49-state vehicle's exhaust system to fit the 50-state version.
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It says very clearly above that OEM cats are CA legal. The CARB laws started in 2009 do not apply to OEM cats anyways, they only apply to aftermarket cats. You had an OEM cat installed on your Mazda. You did not have an aftermarket 49-state cat installed.
 
Kornholio

Kornholio

:wave
Apparently you're ignoring the part that 49-state cars, with their OEM converter, can be registered and operated in this state. And you're still ignoring the fact that not all (if not most) 49-state vehicle's exhaust systems are different than the 50-state version. It's not as simple as you think it is. And no, I had a 49-state converter installed. I paid for it, I signed the documentation to order and have it installed. The price difference was pretty damn clear too.
 
Kornholio

Kornholio

:wave
:dunno

Like I said earlier, I didn't want to turn this into a pissing match. OP, I'm sorry for treading all over this thread. I'll let the rest of these guys hash it out. :wave
 
Mr. White

Mr. White

Well-known member
Kornholio said:
Apparently you're ignoring the part that 49-state cars, with their OEM converter, can be registered and operated in this state. And you're still ignoring the fact that not all (if not most) 49-state vehicle's exhaust systems are different than the 50-state version. It's not as simple as you think it is. And no, I had a 49-state converter installed. I paid for it, I signed the documentation to order and have it installed. The price difference was pretty damn clear too.
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I'm not ignoring it. I've said multiple times that OEM cats are CA legal. Again, OEM cats are not included in the the CARB laws that apply to aftermarket cats. You had an OEM cat installed. You could not, however, legally install an aftermarket 49-state cat on your Mazda. There is absolutely nothing in the law that says 49-state aftermarket cats are legal for use on 49-state cars registered in CA.
 
aram

aram

Well-known member
Kornholio said:
Just had it done last month.

And I've worked in exhaust for the last 10 years...with CARB. I'm not going to turn this into a pissing contest. There's letter of the law and spirit of the law. Installing a 50-state cat on a 49-state car means nothing but more money for the manufacturer in most cases. I see people installing 49-state converters on 49-state cars all the time. Never had a problem.
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Similar experience here. People get all tossed up about this stuff it isn't a big deal.
 
oldapeman

oldapeman

Rookie My A$$!
OP here. Thank you all for the very educated discussion. We can all agree that the rules are confusing. I am going to contemplate my options as I rattle along for a while longer. It is fine with the windows up.
 
fawndog

fawndog

Well-known member
So your only problem is "cosmetic noise"?

I can relate, however I can't think of a solution other than replacing the cats. The element inside the cat has crumbled to allow the whole piece or a fragment to rattle against the enclosure. I think they are built differently now so this doesn't happen on newer cats.

Since I have access to shop equipment, I might cut it open and wrap the honeycomb with steel wool to stop the rattle, but why when it would probably benefit from newer better cats anyway.
 
joespeedfast

joespeedfast

WTF LOL
Kornholio said:
Perhaps. The OP doesn't have to take my advice then. If he's out of state and buys an OEM replacement converter for his car and then comes back with it still on, no one is going to bat an eye. If that were the issue, you wouldn't be allowed to leave the OEM 49-state converter on the vehicle when you first bring it to California.
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I don't think anybody here was ever questioning the legality of replacing the OEM cat with another OEM cat(at 3-5x the cost of aftermarket), on any vehicle, regardless of manufacture origin or certification, only the newer laws regulating aftermarket replacement cats.
I think we all knew that you can take your grey market(BAR Referee certified) Ferrari to the dealer and have the OEM cat legally replaced with the same.
 
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