rebekahlynn
racer x
Signed cus Butch asked so nicely this morning 
Please sign petition to open Zero Emission OHV park in SJ
- Thread starter The Deanster
- Start date
here in East San Ho, there is a group that plays every weekend at Joseph George Middle school. One of these days I am going to go watch. When i am too old to ride. I'll take up golf too
Signed cus Butch asked so nicely this morning
He said please?? :teeth
Great to see you looking so bad ass on your bike.!!!
flying_hun
Adverse Selection
This.Signed cus Butch asked so nicely this morning
rebekahlynn
racer x
Now that I think about it I don't remember a please :laughing
Thanks, you don't look half bad on that shiny Duc yourself!
I would suspect it's because this is very much a rich man's park proposal. E-bikes compared to most other bikes are two to three times the price. Most kids (even adult ones) wont be able to afford an E-bike for quite a long while. They are a tiny population, of what's already a small population.
Also, while they have made great strides battery technology is still between mostly crapy to extremely crapy. Unless you have multiple battery packs you can't go out there for a full day, probably not even a half day.
The opening post complained about smelly bikes. If there is a sewage plant there does that really matter? Loudness can be controlled, as loud bikes don't translate into better performance (within reason). The two main reasons for segregating the largest (by far) population of moto riders are small obstacles that can be easily shelved, and yet they are presented an a feature.
Of the 52 some odd signatures most of those are probably sympathy votes. Probably less than ten percent of those people have, or even plan to get an E-bike in the next year or two. That's a tiny number out of a rather large potentially friendly population.
Asking non-riders to sign the petition only exasperates the situation. They are never going to make use of the park. It all illustrates why this isn't truly in the best interested of anyone other than some fat wallet E-bikers.
As was stated above the peninsula really does need a BMX track. The only one we had was marginalized by the FootBall people so that they could have a new hotel. Pump tracks, flow trails, and such also would be supported by a huge population. A kart like track would pull from both the moto community, and the kart community. Incorporating all of these things would create a support base that would actually be able to move something forward. But discriminating against the potently best supporters, as has been illustrated, is a great way to exercise futility.
clutchslip
Not as fast as I look.
This is a thoughtful post. As I recall, this area was proposed at an off-road motorcycle area a couple of years ago. Now, we are going with e-bikes to be political correct and hoping that the four wheelers will forget about futball (soccer), and let a handful of people ride their batteries until they die.
Is someone going to provide e-bikes for people to use, and learn on, as a cheap rental business? This is especially important for the young, where tiny p.c. electric bikes are in limited supply.
As a realist, I think we need to include bicycling and other activities if possible, or figure out how to get the noisy bikes in, or get a fleet of e-bikes to use. Otherwise ....... I have my doubts. I may vote during normal business hours, but I have reservations that the plan is comprehensive enough or sellable to anyone but a niche group.
Smash Allen
Banned
:rolleyes
Bmx park can be included and rental fleet will be offered. Not just rich mans e bike park. Does OP have to repeat every five posts?
Bmx park can be included and rental fleet will be offered. Not just rich mans e bike park. Does OP have to repeat every five posts?
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The Deanster
Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback. I'll see if I can address your issues.
"I would suspect it's because this is very much a rich man's park proposal. E-bikes compared to most other bikes are two to three times the price. Most kids (even adult ones) wont be able to afford an E-bike for quite a long while. They are a tiny population, of what's already a small population."
If you are referring to me personally, I am far from rich. I'm a PCB layout engineer, un-degreed. I bought a house with half the funds coming from my father as a gift from an inheritance he received. With my wife out of work and in school the bills each month are still more than I earn. When my savings (actually some stock options) are gone we're eating beans until she gets a job again or I get a second job.
I don't own an e-bike. Both of my bikes cost $10,000+ each. With tax and everything I probably spent 25K. I like my KLX450R and KTM 690R supermoto. The Alta motors Redshift bike is $14K i think, I can't afford one now either.
The park will rent adult and kid bikes because nobody owns them. I think you could rent a bike for many many hours for 10K.
"Also, while they have made great strides battery technology is still between mostly crapy to extremely crapy. Unless you have multiple battery packs you can't go out there for a full day, probably not even a half day."
I won't get into range issues but with a closed park with only 20 miles of trails and swapping rental bikes or batteries this is the least of my concerns. I would like to see a remote solar powered charging station and picnic type area if that would make sense. Bike owners would have made the decision themselves on range and charging.
"The opening post complained about smelly bikes. If there is a sewage plant there does that really matter? Loudness can be controlled, as loud bikes don't translate into better performance (within reason). The two main reasons for segregating the largest (by far) population of moto riders are small obstacles that can be easily shelved, and yet they are presented an a feature."
Yeah, my bad. I'm trying to use their own ammunition to convince certain environmental factions to allow or support an OHV park. Certain groups and individuals hate dirt bikes, I'm using keywords and concepts like zero emission, environmental restoration , preserving open space, funding for habitat stewardship, etc. I got carried away.
The sewer plant is modernizing and eliminating the odor. Right now it doesn't smell at the front of the plant where the phase one park would be but prepare to gag if you drive around back.
"Of the 52 some odd signatures most of those are probably sympathy votes. Probably less than ten percent of those people have, or even plan to get an E-bike in the next year or two. That's a tiny number out of a rather large potentially friendly population."
I disagrees about the sympathy part. I'll let others speak for themselves. I agree that very few own them, hence the rental fleet. Electric cars are a very tiny fraction too but I think that will change over time.
"Asking non-riders to sign the petition only exasperates the situation. They are never going to make use of the park. It all illustrates why this isn't truly in the best interested of anyone other than some fat wallet E-bikers."
If you are referring to me personally again see answer one above.
"As was stated above the peninsula really does need a BMX track. The only one we had was marginalized by the FootBall people so that they could have a new hotel. Pump tracks, flow trails, and such also would be supported by a huge population. A kart like track would pull from both the moto community, and the kart community. Incorporating all of these things would create a support base that would actually be able to move something forward. But discriminating against the potently best supporters, as has been illustrated, is a great way to exercise futility.[/QUOTE]
I attended the Alviso community park expansion public input meetings. A BMX track was one item listed as an option. I was the only guy to support it for the kids. Nobody else wanted it but there were no kids deciding. The main park here could include a BMX track or any number of other options. When (if) the time comes, attend the public input meetings
Listen, I'm trying to get an OHV park open any way I can. If it has to be electric only, so be it. I wouldn't care if the bikes were powered by farts if that got a park open. I'm trying to work with what we got now.
I'm not happy with hows things are now. When I lived in a trailer park outside Alviso at my Mom's I would sneak out past the dumps and out onto the levees on my little Honda 90 and cruise around enjoying the bay and birds. There was a cool Little water crossing where the levee sank. I could usually make it through without getting my butt wet. Now it's literally a federal offense if you try that.
When I was growing up in Half Moon Bay my friends and I would ride all up and down the coast and in the hills. I would get up early before school and ride out to the beach and back. Everything is fenced off now or cops will show up pronto. They paved some of our dirt trails on the cliffs for "multi-use". Those were our trails, dammit!
I cant just put my kid on a mini-bike and send him out in the fields anywhere. I'm trying to make our chosen sport more accessible and bring some of that back to our own backyard.
I was expecting backlash from environmental groups, not so much from fellow riders. If anyone thinks they can get a park open here without concessions like zero emission only, feel free to propose it.
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The Deanster
Well-known member
I think you may be remembering this proposal. it was first submitted in 2010. No other motorized recreation proposals were submitted.
Mountain bikes are included. There will be a rental fleet of adult and kids bikes. There are already kid sized electric dirt bikes on the market.
There will most assuredly be public input meetings about the majority of the land years from now when everybody will propose all kinds weird stuff like downhill wet grass mat skiing (which was proposed during the EIR). I hope I'm not the only one fighting for this if I'm still alive. If I'm dead please ask them to name it The Deanster Memorial Park. :angel
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The Deanster
Well-known member
Thanks Butch, it's been a pleasure working alongside you these past 6 years, fighting for dirt riders at the habitat plan meetings, Santa Clara County recreation input and state meetings. Keep up the good work! :thumbup
bpw
Well-known member
Electric assist mountain bikes are a way bigger market, and while expensive are not huge money, they could easily coexist with motos on a track like this as they aren't any slower than a kid on a 50cc. It will take ~5-10 years to get something like this built anyways, by then the e-bike/moto market is going to be very different than today.
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Dean,
I was responding to Butch's post (the one that I quoted).
I realize that this sort of thing is difficult. That's why I put effort into my post. The fact the CS and I agree on something (almost never happens!) should speak volumes.
If you live anywhere close to Stockton you could buy a used 65cc dirt bike for around $500. Put slicks on it for about $100, spend $300 for a yearly pass and you and a buddy (or your kid) could go out there nearly every day of the year.
Compare that to going to one of the E-kart tracks on the peninsula. The rental karts would cost you close to two or three hundred dollars to take your kid there for a few hours. I, personally don't see a rental as a viable option--unless it is a rich man's park.
A viable battery swap system would require some serious engineering, and redundancy. As an engineer I'm surprised this isn't more of a concern for you, but then maybe you've already done the numbers, and figure out how to make it work. Impressive if you have!
BMX people (as much as I love them for that was my sport as a kid--and I still ride BMX race bikes) are not very well organized. So I'm not surprised that they didn't know to show up for those meetings. Thanks much for standing up for them!
Environmental people are going to hate on you just as much for E-bikes as they will for any kind of bike--even MTBs and BMX. They cannot differentiate. Removing the gas powered folks is a lot like throwing out the baby and keeping the dirty wash water. Including E-bike support would be wise, but excluding the current most viable option hurts you a lot more than it helps.
Yes sympathy. If you don't have or don't expect to have an E-bike anytime soon and you support something like this it is out of sympathy. It's not a bad thing, it just shows that they really aren't supporters in the way of someone that would be using the park. And that means that they are the sort of folks that are going to go to meetings and all of the necessary things you need from your supporters.
• (sympathies) support in the form of shared feelings or opinions: his sympathies lay with his constituents.
For a park to thrive a rental business isn't going to really do it. If you have a bike you are a rider. If you don't have one and rent one occasionally you are in interested party. My sax teacher use to tell my if you don't have a horn you aren't a player. When my sax was stolen I stopped being a sax player. If the environment isn't easily able to support people with passion (owners of bikes) than it just isn't going to thrive. And the only folks that are going to be able to own E-bikes are those fat wallets. You yourself don't even have one. How many of those 52ish signees have one? More than 10%?
Check in with Allen over at the Stockton Little 99. He's put in years of slaving to get that kart track open to motos. He's done an amazing job. He could probably provide you with some very useful insight as he's done the very thing you are trying to do.
Talk with the folks up at Sonoma about their kart rentals, and see how well that business does for them. They do a lot of corporate "fun" days, which takes it back to fat wallet mode again. But it will paint you a better picture than my words can.
Inclusiveness is going to be key to getting the support you need. SJ has some awesome MTB support, and Calabasis can help you with BMX. Check in with Cambrian for the karts. Build up a coalition of all the folks that love these things and you just might gain the momentum you'll need.
I was responding to Butch's post (the one that I quoted).
I realize that this sort of thing is difficult. That's why I put effort into my post. The fact the CS and I agree on something (almost never happens!) should speak volumes.
If you live anywhere close to Stockton you could buy a used 65cc dirt bike for around $500. Put slicks on it for about $100, spend $300 for a yearly pass and you and a buddy (or your kid) could go out there nearly every day of the year.
Compare that to going to one of the E-kart tracks on the peninsula. The rental karts would cost you close to two or three hundred dollars to take your kid there for a few hours. I, personally don't see a rental as a viable option--unless it is a rich man's park.
A viable battery swap system would require some serious engineering, and redundancy. As an engineer I'm surprised this isn't more of a concern for you, but then maybe you've already done the numbers, and figure out how to make it work. Impressive if you have!
BMX people (as much as I love them for that was my sport as a kid--and I still ride BMX race bikes) are not very well organized. So I'm not surprised that they didn't know to show up for those meetings. Thanks much for standing up for them!
Environmental people are going to hate on you just as much for E-bikes as they will for any kind of bike--even MTBs and BMX. They cannot differentiate. Removing the gas powered folks is a lot like throwing out the baby and keeping the dirty wash water. Including E-bike support would be wise, but excluding the current most viable option hurts you a lot more than it helps.
Yes sympathy. If you don't have or don't expect to have an E-bike anytime soon and you support something like this it is out of sympathy. It's not a bad thing, it just shows that they really aren't supporters in the way of someone that would be using the park. And that means that they are the sort of folks that are going to go to meetings and all of the necessary things you need from your supporters.
• (sympathies) support in the form of shared feelings or opinions: his sympathies lay with his constituents.
For a park to thrive a rental business isn't going to really do it. If you have a bike you are a rider. If you don't have one and rent one occasionally you are in interested party. My sax teacher use to tell my if you don't have a horn you aren't a player. When my sax was stolen I stopped being a sax player. If the environment isn't easily able to support people with passion (owners of bikes) than it just isn't going to thrive. And the only folks that are going to be able to own E-bikes are those fat wallets. You yourself don't even have one. How many of those 52ish signees have one? More than 10%?
Check in with Allen over at the Stockton Little 99. He's put in years of slaving to get that kart track open to motos. He's done an amazing job. He could probably provide you with some very useful insight as he's done the very thing you are trying to do.
Talk with the folks up at Sonoma about their kart rentals, and see how well that business does for them. They do a lot of corporate "fun" days, which takes it back to fat wallet mode again. But it will paint you a better picture than my words can.
Inclusiveness is going to be key to getting the support you need. SJ has some awesome MTB support, and Calabasis can help you with BMX. Check in with Cambrian for the karts. Build up a coalition of all the folks that love these things and you just might gain the momentum you'll need.
The Deanster
Well-known member
Thanks for the insights. California State Parks is willing to operate this as a demonstration park. The rental side is far from settled. It was originally going to be a nonprofit running a park using State Park Grants. The city wants to deal with nonprofits.
The 40 acre demo motorcycle park will take 1-2 years to sort out if allowed. The land for the main park won't be reclaimed until 2027 under the current plan. I'll either be in a zero emission electric wheelchair or like I said, dead when (if) that finally opens.
This petition is to try to convince the city to let the state lease the 40 acres of empty land for ten years while development proceeds around it and show support for the park moving into the reclaimed land in the future. One step at a time. Don't sweat the details, they will be worked out.
Ben, go out to Stockton and see if you can keep up with Max or Brandon on their 50cc bikes. You wont be able to do it on a 250, let alone on an E-MTB. Little kids they days are way faster than your words would imply.
If you are talking about dirt bikes, putting an E-MTB on the same trail as an E-moto you are just asking for BIG TROUBLE. The disparity guarantees serious catastrophic crashes. They can be in the same park, but they have to have their own trails.
By law e-bicycles are limited to 20-25mph. There are some getting around the legislation maneuvers, and of course aftermarket mods. But these aren't fast vehicles. They are mostly adaptations to a bicycle that allow lazy people to feel like they are doing something healthy. And for some "environmentally responsible." But that's only because they can't do the math.
Batteries are still very crude technologies. Even the MEGA factory is floundering. Battery powered vehicles are simply a stop gap until fuel cells come into maturity. Batteries are not going to develop the way you have illustrated. Even ten years from now they will not have solved the issues plaguing them today.
H2 fuel cells are the only current technology that can provide the necessary requirements for an electric vehicle--and currently there are only two of these available (both automobiles) on the consumer market today. Suzuki as far as I know is the only moto company even doing research on an H2 fuel cell bike. It's unlikely that these will be available anytime soon either. While Stanford has gotten nickel based fuel cells to work they still aren't at a consumer production level with that technology--and they need to get there to make them cost effective.
The Deanster
Well-known member
78 replies, 985 views, 59 petition signatures.
40 acres of empty land for ten years or a motorcycle park? I prefer the later. The city won't need to do a thing except sign some papers and make money off their open field.
40 acres of empty land for ten years or a motorcycle park? I prefer the later. The city won't need to do a thing except sign some papers and make money off their open field.