Consensus on troubleshooting mc issues

N

NoTraffic

Well-known member
I was going to post this in The Garage but thought I probably would get more results here so mods, please move if applicable.

I'd like to know from the fellow mechanics/DIYers what you think is an appropriate estimate from an independent shop to diagnose a motorcycle issue, esp. the most time involved ones (electrical gremlins, starting issues). Sometimes it may require labor to just see what the issue is, it gets an initial diagnosis, a part is replaced, and than the shop finds out there's something else that wasn't even related to the repair. Is there a "best practice" approach to diagnosing mechanical issues?

I have a bike I'm trying to mend back to basic health and feel like bringing it to a qualified shop might just be the way to go to eliminate wasting my time or finding out I need special tool to begin with.

Would a 2 hrs estimate be about right?
 
Rob

Rob

House Cat
I have not found a shop that will look at electrical gremlins... especially not after I've had my grubs all over it, without considerable coaxing and confirmation that cost was not an issue.

If cost is a issue and you really want it to run and you have limited time...

There's a saying something like: Cheap, Reliable, Fast... pick two.

However, I'd imagine if you could point to areas to look for improper function, like expected voltage/signal/amperage over whatever electrical thing... a couple of hours would seem reasonable for them to poke and stick a thing into something electrical. <-- you can see my level of electric stuff knowhow

What bike?
 
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gixxerjeff

gixxerjeff

Dogs best friend
When I was in the field the more the customer told me the higher the estimate quote would be.
A basic diag would be quoted at 1.0 hour but if I suspected he'd been chasing something it was wise to presume the obvious had been ruled out and I would quote 2 hours with the understanding that if we found it in half that time we'd charge just the hour.
Reminds me of the sign in the shop:
Hourly rates:
$125.00
$150.00 if you watch
$200.00 if you help.
There is some truth buried in there somewhere.
 
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N

NoTraffic

Well-known member
gixxerjeff said:
When I was in the field the more the customer told me the higher the estimate quote would be.
A basic diag would be quoted at 1.0 hour but if I suspected he'd been chasing something it was wise to presume the obvious had been ruled out and I would quote 2 hours with the understanding that if we found it in half that time we'd charge just the hour.
Reminds me of the sign in the shop:
Hourly rates:
$125.00
$150.00 if you watch
$200.00 if you help.
There is some truth buried in there somewhere.
Click to expand...

That's some wise info, I guess the difference between bikes and cars is that when you're trying to diagnose a bike, you might need a specific OEM part. As a shop and customer you may have sunken costs whereas on cars, a shop may have some service leeway in returning a "like new part" when you find out it wasn't the alternator but just a bad battery. You really can't return an alternator that was installed on a bike for a 10 yrs old bike - can you?

Bike in question is my FZ1 - I have a sneaking suspicion that the Ivan's FCE relays went bad on me as the bike doesn't fire up anymore at 60k miles. I have done everything else to rule out coils, battery, plugs, fuel pump and ignition. Only thing left is the ignition relay or something I haven't thought of. Motor just doesn't turnover. I even called Ivan to see if they had any replacements and unfortunately they dont but when I told him of the symptoms - he bluntly said "yeah, those high miles will do it to the FCE".
 
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gixxerjeff

gixxerjeff

Dogs best friend
NoTraffic said:
.....but when I told him of the symptoms - he bluntly said "yeah, those high miles will do it to the FCE".
Click to expand...

:laughing
That's technician code for "Yeah sure, dude. Hold it up to the phone and I'll fix it."
A bit snarky perhaps, but I understand where that comes from.

Like Rob said, you're gonna be at their mercy for the diag. That's why it's so important to only deal with a shop that you trust.
 
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M

motomania2007

TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
NoTraffic said:
Bike in question is my FZ1 - I have a sneaking suspicion that the Ivan's FCE relays went bad on me as the bike doesn't fire up anymore at 60k miles. I have done everything else to rule out coils, battery, plugs, fuel pump and ignition. Only thing left is the ignition relay or something I haven't thought of. Motor just doesn't turnover. I even called Ivan to see if they had any replacements and unfortunately they dont but when I told him of the symptoms - he bluntly said "yeah, those high miles will do it to the FCE".
Click to expand...

Why not just replace the FCE relays? If it is a relay, that is easy, just buy the correct relay... Relays are cheap. Relays are easy to test as well.
 
banshee01

banshee01

Well-known member
I'm a little confused you say the motor just doesnt turn over but the Ivan's FCU had to do with the fuel doesnt it? Is it tied in to the starting system?

If the bike turns over but does not fire the yeah spark, fuel and compression is to be checked. If the bike just doesnt turn over now we are talking as easy as the side stand switch, battery, relaly, wiring issue (corroded connection)
 
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ratsblast

ratsblast

Well-known member
Do you know how to use a volt meter and read a wiring diagram? You can test relays with battery and voltmeter. There is a proper way to diagnose problems, it doesnt involve randomly replacing parts.

First rule of electrical is clean grounds and fuse connections. Check for broken wires and corroded cables.
 
clutchslip

clutchslip

Not as fast as I look.
Some real advice in this thread. Here is some more.
ratsblast said:
Do you know how to use a volt meter and read a wiring diagram? You can test relays with battery and voltmeter. There is a proper way to diagnose problems, it doesnt involve randomly replacing parts.

Third rule of electrical is clean grounds and fuse connections. Check for broken wires and corroded cables.
Click to expand...
FTFY
First rule is don't be a ground while holding a hot lead.
Second rule is don't reverse polarity.

Meanwhile, get a tester, op. It may not save you right now. But, you will use it for decades. I will go look at mine and post the i.d.. It is very good, compact, does ohms, resistance, etc.. Best of luck.
 
N

NoTraffic

Well-known member
Point of this whole thread is I'm pretty much done trying to tackle it. I'll give it one more go but I'd rather have a competent shop take care of it and know exactly where to isolate issues instead of an enthusiast like me take different angles.

Yes - the sidestand switch has already been bypassed - by me trying to resolve this.
 
nakedape

nakedape

Well-known member
NoTraffic said:
Bike in question is my FZ1 - I have a sneaking suspicion that the Ivan's FCE relays went bad on me as the bike doesn't fire up anymore at 60k miles. I have done everything else to rule out coils, battery, plugs, fuel pump and ignition. Only thing left is the ignition relay or something I haven't thought of. Motor just doesn't turnover. I even called Ivan to see if they had any replacements and unfortunately they dont but when I told him of the symptoms - he bluntly said "yeah, those high miles will do it to the FCE".
Click to expand...

God damn it, I just tossed a known good ivan fce. Those things worked well before flashing became reliable and affordable. The way they are constructed suggest heat will kill them. Sorry I could help you on this one...
 
N

NoTraffic

Well-known member
nakedape said:
God damn it, I just tossed a known good ivan fce. Those things worked well before flashing became reliable and affordable. The way they are constructed suggest heat will kill them. Sorry I could help you on this one...
Click to expand...

Dang, I would've given you some coin too for it. Ivan said he stopped making the FCEs and just does ECU flashes now.

I plan on taking the FCE off but if that doesn't do it . . it's probably some relay somewhere that's defective.
 
ilikefood

ilikefood

Well-known member
What’s the issue? Does the starter not work (doesn’t spin the engine)? Or starter spins the engine but the engine never fires/catches?

If it’s the former, look at fuses, starting switch, relay, and starter. If it’s the latter, then check fuel, compression, spark.

No spark will be the hardest to diagnose. Anecdote time: back in early 2000s I had an ‘86 VFR that died while I was riding it. I had no money for mechanics, so I diagnosed it myself. Took a looooong time but it turned out that one of the cams had a little metal tab attached to a gear, which generated a signal to the ECU about cam position, and that metal tab had somehow broken off. I replaced the cam and the bike ran fine. If I had taken it to a shop, it would have taken many, many hours of diagnosis time, and I’m not sure they would have ever found it!

I sure hope your issue is simpler! :)
 
Free_Bird

Free_Bird

Highways
A Professional hourly rate I estimate would be hundreds of dollars an hour. The only thing to watch for is when the work is done by an apprentice or less knowledgeable skilled worker in the shop. Charging Pro rates when Amateurs do the job. Amateurs rate I estimate would be in the twenties of dollars an hour.

So yes two Hours a Pro can accomplish much.

So much information on the web to help DIY. "Bike does not start" is classic first step on a Troubleshooting Tree. Check for online pdf service manuals that include Troubleshooting Trees.
Don't need to be specific so General Troubleshooting Trees is useful for most MC.
 
Scandalous

Scandalous

Hella legit
Check or have someone check camshaft and crankshaft position sensors. The ecu won't fire the coils without those signals.
 
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