Bike Doesn't start.

[skaveri]

Hello All,

I'm in desperate need of help with my 2001(or 3) Aprilia RSV mille. The bike doesn't start and having problems but cranks really good as if like it's going to start any second. I did lots of research, watched you tube videos and my first suspicion was that spark plugs may have gone wrong. Here are the things that I did so far and still no luck.

1. Purchased and replaced brand new battery since my older one completely died. Battery is fully charged and functional.

2. Removed all 4 spark plugs and checked for sparks when tried to start the bike, but didn't see any sparks on all four spark plugs.

3. Now thinking that spark plugs may not be the culprit. Perhaps relays, fuses or coils ?. I have no idea at this point.

Any ideas, suggestions ?. I would really appreciate any recommendations or I'm also willing to pay someone who wants make some extra bucks to fix this in person at my home.

Please help.

Thanks,
-Srini. :thumbup

 

[usedtobefast]

So was this running great at some point? And then battery died and hasn't run since?

Have you checked the fuses?

Also, for checking spark, it is a bit hard to see. And you have to make sure the plug is touching metal that is grounded ... it will not spark just hanging in the air.

So maybe:
- ensure checking for spark correctly
- check fuses

Also, any chance it could be some sort of kickstand switch or clutch switch that got messed up?

 

[scootergmc]

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?246417-Starting-Problems-Trouble-Shooting-Guide


edit: At your mileage, I'd start by checking starter/ground cable connections and cleaning.

 

[DannoXYZ]

yep, pull out testing instruments (multimeter & oscilloscope) and start measuring. Some of those numbers will tell you exactly where problem is.

Don't just desperately and randomly replace perfectly-working parts with brand-new perfectly working parts, because nothing will change. Find that number that's out of spec first.

For example, if you measure a plug-gap of 1.5mm and compare to number in manual, that doesn't match, so yes new plugs are needed.

With modern bikes using EFI, my 1st test is always to 'scope the crank-sensor signal. Ran across case last week where the trigger bumps were damaged and waveform of TDC bump wasn't to spec and ECU was blinded, couldn't tell when engine was at TDC.

 

[ScottRNelson]

Also, for checking spark, it is a bit hard to see. And you have to make sure the plug is touching metal that is grounded ... it will not spark just hanging in the air.

Can't you also tell that the spark plug is getting juice by holding it your hand while cranking the motor?

:teeth

On some bikes, like my Honda XR650L, the motor still turns over the same when the run/off switch is in the off position. I ran into that one several times before making sure to check that switch any time it doesn't want to start. (I don't kill the engine normally by using that switch.) This is not an issue with my KTM, because that one uses the same switch for both start and off functions.

 

[Pushrod]

Funniest thing I ever watched was when a joker walked through a bar parking lot during Daytona Bike Week and flipped every kill switch to the off position.

Some guys just threw the switch to on and others spent an hour with tool kits and cell phones searching for problems.

How is your kill sw set?

 

[ST Guy]

Funniest thing I ever watched was when a joker walked through a bar parking lot during Daytona Bike Week and flipped every kill switch to the off position.

Some guys just threw the switch to on and others spent an hour with tool kits and cell phones searching for problems.

How is your kill sw set?

This.

Nothing is going to go wrong from a dead battery except that you might have some fuel evaporate. And that's even unlikely.

Check the kill switch. And make sure it's out of gear.

 

[bobl]

Can't you also tell that the spark plug is getting juice by holding it your hand while cranking the motor?

Years ago at a Kawasaki service school, one of the instructors said "If you don't see any spark with the plug sitting on the head, hold the plug in you hand and try again'. We all laughed, and then he said "If your not willing to do that, you don't know if you have spark or not, don't bother going any further". Food for thought.

Having done that a time or two, I discovered that those old ET magnetos that were used on Japanese enduros would often produce a spark too weak to be seen, but enough to feel if the points were dirty. Since they were mags, and dependent on the speed of turn over for amount of spark, you could increase the speed in increments with the kick starter until you felt a little tingle. It saved a lot of time trouble shooting. You did not however want to get into one of the street CDIs.:laughing

 

[skaveri]

Hello All, Thanks for all your quick responses. I would like to start my replies starting from the first responder in that order.

1. @ usedtobefast : A month ago it was perfectly running bike. Since I wasn't riding this bike for a while, I had to jump start the battery which I dis twice and bike started. But the third time it didn't even start even with jump start using my car. Then decided to get a new battery and installed it which has full change in it. Spark Plugs - I tested it thoroughly in the right manner with old and new spark plugs for sparks, but none of them are showing any sparks. Fuses: This is my next step to test. I'll check the fuses today and see what they are up to.

2.@ scootergmc : Thanks for the advise, I'll check the starter/ground cable connections right away.

3. @ DannoXYZ : I ensured the plug gaps are according to the readings in the manual. I don't know what is "scope the crank-sensor signal" but will research on that asap.

4. @ ScottRNelson : I only tested the spark plugs for sparks but didn't see anything else.

5. @ Pushrod and ST Guy : I saw lots of people talking about the kill switch, but mine is working normally and is not off while I try to start the bike. I'll check that again and thanks for the advise.

I'll try all your suggestions and will see if the bike gets any life or not.

Thanks,
-Srini.

 

[berth]

Can't you also tell that the spark plug is getting juice by holding it your hand while cranking the motor?

On my moped, which was notorious for fouling, I was checking for a spark one evening in the parking lot of where I was working.

It was interesting to feel the surges of electricity slow down through my body as the magneto/generator spun down.

 

[ScottRNelson]

Can't you also tell that the spark plug is getting juice by holding it your hand while cranking the motor?

Yeah, too bad nobody has mentioned that yet. :rolleyes

But good additional explanation. Especially the part about if you're "sure" it's not getting spark. You have to be 100% sure to actually do that.

 

[DannoXYZ]

3. @ DannoXYZ : I ensured the plug gaps are according to the readings in the manual. I don't know what is "scope the crank-sensor signal" but will research on that asap.

Sorry, that was just an example of gathering numeric data (plug-gap). There's other numbers you should measure. Follow procedure in manual.

As other mentioned, trace power through ignition-switch:

- battery-voltage
- power going into ignition-switch
- power going OUT of ignition-switch with key-ON. Some lines go to headlight start-circuit, some goes to electronics/ECU, etc.
- power going INTO kill-switch
- power going OUT of kill-switch

Not sure of this particular bike, but on many bikes, starter-circuit power is separate from ECU. So it's possible to crank bike just fine, but brain's dead.

Even with working ECU, it needs proper data input to work. One of most critical sensor signals from crank/cam sensor. Might look like something like this:

Last one is from SV650. Note there's minimum-voltage requirements for each peak. And there's missing tooth to indicate TDC. All these numbers are in the manual, make sure yours matches.

In your case, you'll want to 'scope the signal going to coils. It should look something like this:

Without using oscilloscope, you can also test signal with 'noid light. Amazon - noid light tester
Connect each terminal to primary-terminals on coil and it'll flash to tell you there's trigger signal from ECU. If no flash, then we need to work upstream and see why ECU is not sending trigger signal to coils.

With this kind of objective quantifiable testing, you don't need to waste time and money swapping parts because you'll be able to track down exactly what problem is. Most likely an upstream power/ground/sensor issue with ECU circuit.

Because it's very, extremely unlikely that ALL four spark-plugs would die at exactly same time. Or ignition-coils for that matter.

 

[scootergmc]

Also, I usually head over to manufacturer's forum and check the model specific stuff first. Sometimes it saves a lot of time. Who knows.

https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?262140-Rsv-won-t-start-but-does-turn-over

 

[plate 181]

When you jumped it with your car the 3rd time, was your car running or off?

If you jump from a car, the car must be off or you can damage the bike's electrical system. Not necessarily saying that's what happened here, but thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[skaveri]

When you jumped it with your car the 3rd time, was your car running or off?

If you jump from a car, the car must be off or you can damage the bike's electrical system. Not necessarily saying that's what happened here, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Very good question plate181. When I jump started, I had the car engine running (On mode) and the bike did start, but when I did it again the third time, The bike didn't even start(Car engine was running ). This might have messed up something in the bike's electrical system.

 

[dravnx]

When you jumped it with your car the 3rd time, was your car running or off?

If you jump from a car, the car must be off or you can damage the bike's electrical system. Not necessarily saying that's what happened here, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Why/how?

 

[DannoXYZ]

Why/how?

Auto's charging system typically puts out 14.5-15.5v. When you connect that to bike, RR will try to regulate car's output as well. It'll dump all 65-75amps car's alternator is capable of generating to ground on bike. Will end up frying RR and even some wiring.

When jumping bike from car, you're just borrowing car's battery. So safest scenario is to remove battery from auto and place it on ground next to bike. Then connect jumper cables and start bike.

Bike starter only draws 40-60amps, so no worries about draining auto battery. You also don't need all that capacity anyway. After cranking 3x for 5-seconds, if it doesn't start, STOP! Something's broken like wiring, sensors, coils, injectors, ECU, etc. Cranking more isn't gonna fix it. Pull out manual and go through process of measuring and testing.

 

[ST Guy]

Auto's charging system typically puts out 14.5-15.5v. When you connect that to bike, RR will try to regulate car's output as well. It'll dump all 65-75amps car's alternator is capable of generating to ground on bike. Will end up frying RR and even some wiring.

When jumping bike from car, you're just borrowing car's battery. So safest scenario is to remove battery from auto and place it on ground next to bike. Then connect jumper cables and start bike.

Bike starter only draws 40-60amps, so no worries about draining auto battery. You also don't need all that capacity anyway. After cranking 3x for 5-seconds, if it doesn't start, STOP! Something's broken like wiring, sensors, coils, injectors, ECU, etc. Cranking more isn't gonna fix it. Pull out manual and go through process of measuring and testing.

Zero need to remove car battery from car. Just don't have the car engine running.

 

[DannoXYZ]

yeah, not really needed. But I'm thinking of desperate scenarios where things can go horribly wrong, "Damnit!!! Why isn't it starting? Maybe if I turn car on..."

 

[scootergmc]

This thread is what's wrong with internet diagnostics. It went from basic to oscilloscopes in three replies. I love it.