Any BARF Audiophiles?

Mike95060

Work In Progress
Live music cannot act as a reference; the bands have very little control over the sound, so what you get most of the times is a typically laughable PA system combined with the acoustics of the venue. Even worse, if you prefer standing in the first few rows, you are usually behind the plane of the speakers, so all you get is the sound of the band's equipment, plus reflected sound.

The main point of a live event is to overwhelm the senses, it's not to let the audience experience high-resolution sound.

Really, the sound in my living room is far superior to almost all live events I have been to, and I'm pretty sure I have been to all the live venues in SF that host rock bands.



That went straight over my head.

I was just teasing you about your level of geekiness on this topic. It's awesome man. Almost Rainman level and I love it. If you don't know, cannabis has been known to enhance the experience of listening to music. If you ever want to get baked and listen to dark side of the moon in your living room, please pm me.
 

russ69

Backside Slider
... that shared my taste in music and SPLs. I'm still looking for a speaker than can play louder (110 dBC at listening position) but cleanly, and be able to listen in the nearfield. With the NHTs I can go to about 104 dBC before distortion becomes annoying.

Be careful there young stud, those levels will cause permanent damage.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
Live music cannot act as a reference; the bands have very little control over the sound, so what you get most of the times is a typically laughable PA system combined with the acoustics of the venue. Even worse, if you prefer standing in the first few rows, you are usually behind the plane of the speakers, so all you get is the sound of the band's equipment, plus reflected sound.

Many of the audiophiles I know only listen to classical or other acoustic music. I'm never sure if their musical tastes run that way, if they feel it's easier to tell if they're getting an accurate reproduction or if there is just a layer of snobbery running the show.

I do think it's easier to get a sense of realism (or lack thereof) from acoustic instruments, though comparing a live performance to a recording will always be sort of pointless, as the recorded performance is but a moment in time, with a unique combination of acoustics, temperature, instruments, instrument condition and the performance itself.

With amplified music, you get other variables. The guitar amps used in the studio are seldom the ones used live. Mic placement will always vary. Live sound is often not in stereo. Since the point of a guitar amp is to alter the tone, it's hard to say when you have an accurate rendering. Most of us can tell if it's in the ballpark but it might take Fourier analysis to tell if the reproduction is faithful.

With rock music, it's quite a bit harder to determine realism, though I notice that whenever I'm out and hear music coming from a club, I can always tell whether it's live or recorded, even from outside. I think it's primarily the dynamics. Recorded material never has the same dynamics.
 

johnkol

Well-known member
I read your post as saying that you used measuring devices with atomic precision in your audio related field of work, and was curious of said device.

No, I brought up the atomic precision just to convey the point that there no practical limitations to how accurate our measurements can be. The corollary of that being that we can precisely map a recording byte by byte, measure the output after all amplification and transduction, and thus be able to get a precise error rate -- and then work to minimise that error rate.

For the specific measurements I had been taking, I was merely using a laser interferometer.
 

GAJ

Well-known member
Audiophiles, just curious how often you go see live music. I have seen good bands sound awful. Pretty much anywhere in the Catalyst sounds muddy except the lobby where the engineer guy is. I have also seen great bands sound amazing, The Mermen sound great at Moe's ally IMHO. So audiophiles, what standard are you shooting for when you build a snazzy expensive sound system?

Often which is why the two acoustic acts are what i chose to check tonality or "voicing" differences between Martin Logan, B&W, and Q Acoustics.

All were good but the Martin Logan Folded Motion tweeter exactly replicated the voice of Ben Folds and the lead singer of Bell X1 in non amplified settings with good acoustics.

But yeah, amplified concerts are generally over amplified and uncomfortable.
 

GAJ

Well-known member
I'm still looking for a speaker than can play louder (110 dBC at listening position) but cleanly, and be able to listen in the nearfield. With the NHTs I can go to about 104 dBC before distortion becomes annoying.

Holy smokes!

I listen at no more than 85/90db at 10 feet and that is only if my wife's not home! :laughing

But your point about the SPLs is a key one, for sure.
 

GAJ

Well-known member
M

I do think it's easier to get a sense of realism (or lack thereof) from acoustic instruments, though comparing a live performance to a recording will always be sort of pointless, as the recorded performance is but a moment in time, with a unique combination of acoustics, temperature, instruments, instrument condition and the performance itself.

Luckily I was at the exact acoustic show in SF where one of the songs on their live acoustic album can be found from that exact night.
 

johnkol

Well-known member
Be careful there young stud, those levels will cause permanent damage.

From my experience, auditory damage comes primarily from distorted sound, not SPLs per se. There are some records that are so poorly recorded that I cannot play above 96 dB -- the distortion is so severe that my eardrums start resonating. But if the recording is very clean, I can listen at 104 dB and my ears are perfectly fine afterwards.

Of course, the above is within limits: 130 dB will damage your hearing no matter how clean the sound. Rock concerts are about 116 dBC, and I always use earplugs there.
 

Not Sure

I like money.
So after having a hearing test at work this week, I have come to this conclusion:

After riding motorcycles for the past 25 year straight (with and without earplugs), my hearing is shot and I would be wasting my time and money on any type of audio* gear.

But, on this day, I AM thankful that I can still hear!

(I will still continue to play songs in my head while I ride, or go about my daily life).

Be thankful for something besides food today :thumbup
 

JakesKTM

Well-known member
All my equipment came from my dad:

Sansui 9090db
Advent Loudspeaker -pair
Smaller Advent Loudspeaker-pair
dbx db-Sw-15

Technic SL-1400 turntable

this is all set up on a hardwood floor room with corner bass damping. You have to come listen to appreciate the warmth. Every now and then I just lay on the couch and spin old Return to Forever or Genesis lp's after a bong hit.
 
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russ69

Backside Slider
...After riding motorcycles for the past 25 year straight (with and without earplugs), my hearing is shot and I would be wasting my time and money on any type of audio* gear....

Even with a significant hearing loss you can easily tell the difference between a good system and a great system.
 

KnifeySpoony

_______________________
From my experience, auditory damage comes primarily from distorted sound, not SPLs per se.

Simply not true. I'd venture to say that 99% of noise induced hearing loss is unrelated to exposure to distorted audio reproduction. That's from my experience.

Distortion is what damages your speakers, not your ears.
 

Cycle61

What the shit is this...
From my experience, auditory damage comes primarily from distorted sound, not SPLs per se. There are some records that are so poorly recorded that I cannot play above 96 dB -- the distortion is so severe that my eardrums start resonating. But if the recording is very clean, I can listen at 104 dB and my ears are perfectly fine afterwards.

Of course, the above is within limits: 130 dB will damage your hearing no matter how clean the sound. Rock concerts are about 116 dBC, and I always use earplugs there.

Your experience runs contrary to decades of OSHA studies on safe SPL's for workers in high-noise environments. For somebody with your scientific focus I'm very surprised to hear a statement about something as quantifiable as hearing loss being discussed in terms of "in my experience".
 

johnkol

Well-known member
With rock music, it's quite a bit harder to determine realism, though I notice that whenever I'm out and hear music coming from a club, I can always tell whether it's live or recorded, even from outside. I think it's primarily the dynamics. Recorded material never has the same dynamics.

Isn't it amazing how easily you can tell a live instrument from a recording, even through layers of damping? Dynamics is certainly a major contributor, and it is not a secret that all modern recordings are highly compressed. But I also think that time response plays an equally big role, that is, ability to render overtones faithfully -- and we know that both CDs and records are limited in this domain.
 

johnkol

Well-known member
Your experience runs contrary to decades of OSHA studies on safe SPL's for workers in high-noise environments.

As you note, OSHA studies regarding noise are concerned with work environments, which are different from domestic settings in two significant ways:
  1. The noise is constant for the duration of a typical work day, i.e. 8 hours; hardly anyone listens to music for that long a time
  2. Workplace noise is broad-spectrum (close to white noise), whereas music is very narrow spectrum. I can comfortably listen to 103dBC music for an hour, but white noise at that same level is unbearable for even seconds.
As far as I know, there have been no studies on the effects of recreational music listening at high SPLs. Anecdotal evidence exists for musicians exposed to high SPLs over long periods of times, but these involve individuals in concert environments where levels are around 116 dBC, and more often than not, distorted.
 

TerryM

--/\~
Network: find people with the same taste ...

Thanks, John, but those were rhetorical and in response to your suggestion that the engineer's job is to match the recording byte for byte. My point was, while that's true for the engineer, the consumer/audiophile maybe just wants a system that reproduces whatever is important to him/her - not necessarily anechoic flat and bit-true.

...though I notice that whenever I'm out and hear music coming from a club, I can always tell whether it's live or recorded...

This is one measure I shoot for and it's tough. Yeah, dynamics, timing and tone. Really good SET amps and efficient speakers in the right room can do it with some acoustic, voice and small combo style music but don't do rock justice.

It's all a compromise. In the end I just settle for good tone, reasonable dynamics, timing and loudness. I like what I have and that's what matters.
 

TerryM

--/\~
Audiophiles, just curious how often you go see live music. I have seen good bands sound awful. Pretty much anywhere in the Catalyst sounds muddy except the lobby where the engineer guy is. I have also seen great bands sound amazing, The Mermen sound great at Moe's ally IMHO. So audiophiles, what standard are you shooting for when you build a snazzy expensive sound system?

Pretty often. I put Catalyst's sound down to the engineers, plus that space is not good. Try Kuumbwa if you can find anyone worth seeing. Haven't tried Moe's Alley yet, but saw the Mermen at the Beach Chalet in GG Park a couple of times.
 
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