Any BARF Audiophiles?

[Mike95060]

This thread needs more cowbell.

 

[GAJ]

This thread needs more cowbell.

Yes, but will your speakers reproduce the sound of that cowbell as the artist intended! :laughing

If you like the sound of your music system who gives a crap what the "experts" think of it.

Same thing with motos, if you have a crap bike in the view of the cognoscenti but it puts a smile on your face, fuck 'em.

 

[johnkol]

Have you never heard a Magnepan 20, Infinity Servo Static, Infinity IRS, Apogee, or King Sound King?

I vividly remember the first time I listened to a Magnepan (either the 3.6 or 20): my eyes popped out of their sockets! The sound was so airy, bouncy, exciting -- it was a revelation!

But as time passed and I listened more intently, I started to realise that something was not right: frequencies were missing, the sound was too upbeat, too open. After a couple of hours I couldn't take it anymore; this sound was completely wrong. The closest analogy I could give is that of an impressionistic painting, where the colours are hyper-real and are covering areas where actual information is missing. Undeniably exciting, but decidedly inaccurate.

I subsequently had the chance to listen to some ESL-63, which did not change my opinion (actually, I thought the Magnepans were better), and some crazy expensive Analysis speakers, which I thought were the best, but still not escaping what seem like inherent limitations of the design.

I never sought to listen to any more planar designs; even horn speakers are more accurate in my opinion.

 

[johnkol]

We are waiting...when is this "science" going to be available?

Oh man, this would have been pitiful if you had said it in any other part of the US, but uttering such nonsense here in the Silicon Valley is just... sad.

Just to give you an idea of how far off you are, religious fundamentalists can make a legitimately stronger argument against evolution than you can make against electrical engineering.

All these 45 years you have been reading Gordon Holt, Harry Pearson, and John Atkinson believing they are scientific pillars of the audio community, when in fact they are Moe, Larry, and Curly of engineering.

 

[johnkol]

The first is does your measuring equipment (of soundwaves I assume) somehow precisely measure and identify atoms?

I am not exactly sure where you're going with this, but have you heard of Scanning Tunneling Microscopes?

The second question is do you believe that science dictates that every human on this planet receives and interprets audio stimuli/frequencies in exactly the same manner?

First of all, what difference does it make how individuals perceive or interpret aural stimuli? The task of an audio engineer is not to accommodate consumer tastes in music, it is to lift the information off the recorded medium and present it as accurately as possible. Whether an individual will perceive this information as noise or as divine music is completely out of the engineering realm.

Second of all, you have a fundamental misconception of what science is and how it operates: science has never and will never dictate anything. Science is an endeavour where physical phenomena are analysed, and where a unifying principle is sought to explain these phenomena. If such a unifying principle that explains a multitude of seemingly unrelated phenomena is found, then we term that principle a "theory", and it guides us to *predict* (not dictate) future physical phenomena. If those predictions are wrong, then the theory needs to be modified -- i.e., the ultimate arbiter in a scientific theory are the physical phenomena, not the theory.

 

[russ69]

I vividly remember the first time I listened to a Magnepan (either the 3.6 or 20), I subsequently had the chance to listen to some ESL-63, which did not change my opinion...

So two reference points formed your opinion of planers? You have piqued my interest. What loudspeakers do you own? (Not trying for a criticism of your system but curious as to what loudspeaker meets your requirements).
My love for planers goes back to the Infinity Servo Static IIA, a fabulous electrostatic system using the renown KLH electrostatic tweeter (still in production).

 

[TerryM]

...First of all, what difference does it make how individuals perceive or interpret aural stimuli? The task of an audio engineer is not to accommodate consumer tastes in music, it is to lift the information off the recorded medium and present it as accurately as possible. Whether an individual will perceive this information as noise or as divine music is completely out of the engineering realm...

But then back to how that relates to me as a consumer sitting in front of my stereo, what do you suggest for getting the information off the recorded medium and into my ears as accurately as possible? In addition to my inaccurate gear, my living room is no anechoic chamber. How do you deal with speaker/room interaction? - DSP/room correction? Shoot for flat? Is flat is how Mahler's 10th sounds in row G, orchestra center?

 

[GAJ]

So two reference points formed your opinion of planers? You have piqued my interest. What loudspeakers do you own? (Not trying for a criticism of your system but curious as to what loudspeaker meets your requirements).
My love for planers goes back to the Infinity Servo Static IIA, a fabulous electrostatic system using the renown KLH electrostatic tweeter (still in production).

I'm glad I found two sets of speakers I like it seems like you have found what you like.

Enjoy!

 

[russ69]

I'm glad I found two sets of speakers I like it seems like you have found what you like. Enjoy!

Excellent advice.

 

[Mike95060]

Audiophiles, just curious how often you go see live music. I have seen good bands sound awful. Pretty much anywhere in the Catalyst sounds muddy except the lobby where the engineer guy is. I have also seen great bands sound amazing, The Mermen sound great at Moe's ally IMHO. So audiophiles, what standard are you shooting for when you build a snazzy expensive sound system?

 

[russ69]

..So audiophiles, what standard are you shooting for when you build a snazzy expensive sound system?

I play back recorded music. The Grammy award is "to honor excellence in the recording arts and sciences". It is not a live concert, it is an art form on it's own. I have never been fooled enough to think that the entire Philharmonic Orchestra is playing in my music room. However some people think that unamplified acoustic instruments are the reference standard. My only problem is that I don't really listen to that type of music.

 

[Mike95060]

I play back recorded music. The Grammy award is "to honor excellence in the recording arts and sciences". It is not a live concert, it is an art form on it's own. I have never been fooled enough to think that the entire Philharmonic Orchestra is playing in my music room. However some people think that unamplified acoustic instruments are the reference standard. My only problem is that I don't really listen to that type of music.

See me either. I love surf rock. The more distortion and eclectic the sound the better. If I get the feels from my home stereo I'm happy. Even if it can't hold a candle to the live show.

 

[johnkol]

So two reference points formed your opinion of planers? You have piqued my interest. What loudspeakers do you own?

Three points: Magnepans, Quads, and Analysis. And really, how many points do you need to reach a conclusion? Or rather, how many friends do you have with the same obsession and deep wallets?

I have been using NHTs 3.3 for more than a decade now, and have not been able to find anything better. The big B&Ws, WATTs, Spendors, and Living Voice were not up to the task; the only ones that may have surpassed the NHTs were the monstrous Focals, but I would need a far bigger house (and wallet) to accommodate them.

 

[russ69]

...And really, how many points do you need to reach a conclusion?

I've learned not to make gross conclusions about speaker designs until I have had a chance to listen to a particular loudspeaker. Over the years my early prejudices have been obliterated. As an example, I wasn't too hot on horn loudspeakers until I heard a nice pair of Avantgardes.

Or rather, how many friends do you have with the same obsession and deep wallets?...

A few. I also worked closely with my brother on his Infinity RS1B system and his Magnepan 3.6 system before that. He had about 30,000 dollars of big Mac amps on that one. When he died I bought a lot of his gear.

 

[russ69]

...I have been using NHTs 3.3 for more than a decade now...

They got a favorable review in Stereophile or is that bad?

 

[johnkol]

But then back to how that relates to me as a consumer sitting in front of my stereo, what do you suggest for getting the information off the recorded medium and into my ears as accurately as possible?

Network: find people with the same taste in music and same interest in hifi gear. Read lots of reviews and make sure you understand where reviewer is coming from, what their preferred music is, and what kind of SPLs they listen to.

This last point is very important: you have to establish your preferred listening levels before you can begin to compare notes with other people. A record being played at 86 dB tells you nothing about the same system playing at 98 dB, or 106 dB.

And if the above does not yield the results you're looking for, Audiogon: buy the component you're interested in, and if it doesn't work, you can sell it back with minimal loss.

How do you deal with speaker/room interaction? - DSP/room correction? Shoot for flat?

1. House built on slab
2. Nearfield listening
3. Heavy pad and carpet to control first reflections from floor
4. Heavy absorption panels at first side reflection points
5. Plenty of free space behind listening position, or heavy absorption panels
6. Bass absorption on all corners
7. Walls lined with records/CDs/books

The above should be an iterative process, with plenty of measurements to establish as flat a frequency response as possible. SPL meter, frequency generator, multimeter.

DSP correction only if you have an abnormal room that cannot be corrected with above passive measures.

 

[Mike95060]

Network: find people with the same taste in music and same interest in hifi gear. Read lots of reviews and make sure you understand where reviewer is coming from, what their preferred music is, and what kind of SPLs they listen to.

This last point is very important: you have to establish your preferred listening levels before you can begin to compare notes with other people. A record being played at 86 dB tells you nothing about the same system playing at 98 dB, or 106 dB.

And if the above does not yield the results you're looking for, Audiogon: buy the component you're interested in, and if it doesn't work, you can sell it back with minimal loss.



1. House built on slab
2. Nearfield listening
3. Heavy pad and carpet to control first reflections from floor
4. Heavy absorption panels at first side reflection points
5. Plenty of free space behind listening position, or heavy absorption panels
6. Bass absorption on all corners
7. Walls lined with records/CDs/books

The above should be an iterative process, with plenty of measurements to establish as flat a frequency response as possible. SPL meter, frequency generator, multimeter.

DSP correction only if you have an abnormal room that cannot be corrected with above passive measures.

John, how stoned do you get before you listen to a record?

 

[johnkol]

Over the years my early prejudices have been obliterated. As an example, I wasn't too hot on horn loudspeakers until I heard a nice pair of Avantgardes.

My early prejudices were also thoroughly debunked -- until I learned to trust physics; since then my intuition has always been confirmed by measurements and listening tests.

I had listened to some old Klipsch's years ago, and I was not terribly impressed. The Avantgarde's piqued my interest so much that I was ready to buy them, but when I examined them more closely I changed my mind: they require lots of room for driver integration, so nearfield listening is out of the question. This means that you need to have a very large room to make them work, and tons of damping to control the room; basically not possible in my current residence.

Audiophile friends are only a few: one of them had the Magnepans and Analysis, the other the ESLs and Spendors, a third the B&Ws and Focals -- and that's about it. I have also listened to plenty of other equipment at stores, but these auditions are meaningless.

They got a favorable review in Stereophile or is that bad?

No, it's not accidental. Corey Greenberg reviewed them, and to this day has been the only reviewer that shared my taste in music and SPLs. I'm still looking for a speaker than can play louder (110 dBC at listening position) but cleanly, and be able to listen in the nearfield. With the NHTs I can go to about 104 dBC before distortion becomes annoying.

 

[cfives]

I am not exactly sure where you're going with this, but have you heard of Scanning Tunneling Microscopes?

I read your post as saying that you used measuring devices with atomic precision in your audio related field of work, and was curious of said device.

Yes, I have heard of STM. We have a SEM at work, but I have not played with it. I mostly run ICP-OES and ICP-MS (instruments for simultaneous multi element detection and quantification).

That Avantgarde setup looks really cool in a Russian futurist sort of way!

 

[johnkol]

Audiophiles, just curious how often you go see live music. I have seen good bands sound awful.

Live music cannot act as a reference; the bands have very little control over the sound, so what you get most of the times is a typically laughable PA system combined with the acoustics of the venue. Even worse, if you prefer standing in the first few rows, you are usually behind the plane of the speakers, so all you get is the sound of the band's equipment, plus reflected sound.

The main point of a live event is to overwhelm the senses, it's not to let the audience experience high-resolution sound.

Really, the sound in my living room is far superior to almost all live events I have been to, and I'm pretty sure I have been to all the live venues in SF that host rock bands.

John, how stoned do you get before you listen to a record?

That went straight over my head.