Yella600rr's crash at 3j's 1/16/07 T9

nweaver

Well-known member
Also, one other random thought (in the "Why I would have just gone for it and try to make the turn" and to justify my "when in doubt, go for the turn" attitude I've been trying to develop over the years)...

A spinning wheel straight up on a bad traction surface is going to go straight. No slide, no muss.

A spinning wheel turning on a bad traction surface may slide. Bad bad bad but not NECESSARILY catastrophic.

A stopped front wheel on a bad traction surface. Well, a stopped wheel period, and if the wheel isn't spinning again in a fraction of a second is an instant crash as the front tucks under. Owch.


Too bad the MSF doesn't have an outrigger bike for training: it is useful to know what a locked front feels like (terrifying).


Again, however, I'm slow.
 

afm199

Well-known member
I'll go back to my orginal statement. Sometimes you get in situations on the track where every option sucks and all the choices are bad ones.

It's all very good to look at situations and do what ifs, in this case I think the lesson was more difficult, it was "how not to enter a corner, and why you will remember it in the future." Those lessons are hard earned, and remembered.

I put my bike down in T3 at Laguna just barely tapping the front to scrub off some speed when someone went down right in front of me. I followed them off the track like a twin.
 

yella600rr

popmonkey.com
afm199 said:

It's all very good to look at situations and do what ifs, in this case I think the lesson was more difficult, it was "how not to enter a corner, and why you will remember it in the future." Those lessons are hard earned, and remembered.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!!
We have an analize this crash winner.
:cool

PM me for information on how to collect on your prize! :teeth

Quoted and bolded lest it get overlooked.
 

Joebar4000

Well-known member
I have what looks to be a very similar crash on tape, on a sunny day, on good tarmac.

You were coming from a hard right to hard left, correct? You flicked it pretty hard from one side to the other. Although it looks like you have *some* weight on the tire at the start of the slide, I'd love to see the pictures right before that.

Several things go on - by going from any hard turn to upright, you move the Cog of the bike upwards. You're now trying to lower it back down again by entering another turn, but it still wants to carry on lifting the front, plus you're accelerating, so the front is super-light.

Gyroscopic precession also wants to make the front wheel move to the right when you turn it to the left.

I'll try to digitize that video and you can see exactly the moment that it happens - the front wheel lifts up right as the bike is most stood-up, and never regains grips when it touches down.

Add to this you did a harder turn in than normal, you *may* have hit the brakes on the paint or not, and you're on a low-friction surface while the front wheel is light and trying to go off-line just be the nature of it being a big fuckoff gyro AND you have upward momentum from coming 'up' from the previous corner.
 

Holeshot

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ernie, I'd not agree with you that the outcome was predetermined by the action. Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.
 

yella600rr

popmonkey.com
Holeshot said:
Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her 2nd mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!!!!!!!
We have an analize this crash winner runner up.! :teeth

PM me for information on how to collect on your prize!

Quoted and bolded lest it get overlooked.

Thanks Holeshot! I added 2nd to your quote.

There is no quick solution to panic management except for more seat time and practise getting good all the dynamics of riding a rocket. Is there?

The decision has to be determined before the incident because in the time it takes to decide the moment to apply the solution has already passed. I've got to learn how to tap into the MATRIX!
 
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afm199

Well-known member
I agree with your statement, Berto. I think a more experienced rider could have kept it up. My point is more that the options at that point were limited and the time available to choise one and execute it even more limited. A really good rider might have well kept it up and made the turn.

What i am wanting to point out is that the decisions made prior to a turn determine its outcome just as much as the decisions made mid turn.
 

tzrider

Write Only User
Staff member
afm199 said:
What i am wanting to point out is that the decisions made prior to a turn determine its outcome just as much as the decisions made mid turn.

Most crashes in turns have something to do with an error the rider made in the approach, whether it's a problem with entry speed, turn rate, turn point, etc.
 

dsapsis

peripatetic penguin
Holeshot said:
Ernie, I'd not agree with you that the outcome was predetermined by the action. Until a bike has actually hit the ground, there's always more than a few ways to save the bike.

Her mistake was target fixation and her mind getting behind the actions coming up. Mistakes can be fixed by a planned solution to that mistake. This is why experience is so important in Motorcycle riding.

I certainly am not the smartest person around here, but Berto seems spot on. If you look at the first shot in the sequence the front is cockeyed -- I can only presume she is on the brakes. Prior to that shot (back up 5 feet and she is no longer on the paint) and presume no brakes are applied. She is upright, and could -- IMO -- simply have ridden over the paint then tipped it in. The apex area of 9a is possibly the slowest section of the whole track (t 11 likely a tad slower) so no matter if a person is behind her, the speeds are low, that person has seen the error in the line, and likely taken their own personal safety to task.

I honestly believe no brakes, no crash.
 

Gary J

Well-known member
yella600rr said:
Additional Thoughts about my crash:
My key mistake was I boched the entrance/exit of RH T9.

Theresa, I'm glad that the outcome of the T9 crash wasn't too bad, and you're using it as an event from which you can come away learning something to make you an even better rider.

Looking at the photos, tells the story clearly on the root cause of the final "crashing". If you look at the first two photos when you're on the paint, you'll see that you can actually see "air" under your rear tire. That means that you were braking REALLY hard while on the paint.

The real error that put you down, was not your braking most of the time while on the paint, but instead the error in not getting OFF the front brake as your front tire reached the downward/off-camber slope at the last foot or so while leaving the painted berm. If you'd gotten off the front brake for just that 1 second of time that it took for your front tire to complete the downhill ramp of leaving the painted curbing and returning to the normal track surface again, you wouldn't have lost the front end.

The key to such situations, is what I call "interval braking". What's that mean? Well it means actively changing the amount of braking force that a rider is applying, millisecond by millisecond, based upon the traction potential of the exact spot the front tire is on at that precise moment.

To illustrate the concept, here's a visual. Pretend a braking drill was setup at a track school, with the following. On the last 50 yards approaching a turn, in the straight, the drill consisted of having placed 2' x 2' pieces of smooth cardboard on the track surface, spaced 10 feet apart, in this final approach to the turn. The secret for the rider to slow down enough to make the turn, without losing the front on the patches of smooth cardboard, is to do "interval braking".

That means that during the .5 second intervals that the bike's front tire is passing over each of the cardboard patches, the rider consciously gets 100% OFF the front brake just prior to, and while on top of the patch. This is followed by the rider taking full advantage of braking as much as possible immediate thereafter, when the tire returns to normal pavement again. This is a cycle of alternating between total brake release, to maximum braking, precisely timed, to achieve the needed speed reduction to get down to the safe entrance speed for the upcoming turn, without crashing on the dangerous spots (cardboard).

In the case of your Turn 9 incident, in retrospect, if you'd considered the painted curbing you were crossing as one of these "no brake zones", and concentrated on getting down to serious braking in a straight line immediately upon returning to the normal track surface on the other side, I suspect you'd have been well able to scrub off enough speed to not run off the track on the exit of 9a, and would have not crashed as a result.

Overcoming "survival instincts", and "fixation", by mentally (and forcibly) substituting "learned skills" in such unplanned oh-_hit moments, isn't easy, but it is the goal to work torward for all of us; as we strive to be better riders.

I hope the info above may potenitally be of some value as food-for-thought for you Theresa, in making your next trackday experience an even better one. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to stop by the pits at the next trackday where we're both there. Always glad to help, if I can. :thumbup

Gary J
 
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yella600rr

popmonkey.com
Hey Gary_J,

It sounds as if it would be good practice for me to set up this braking drill on the cul-de-sac in front of our house and start practicing this at a slow speed, as it would give me some reflex training.

Thanks,
T
 

Gary J

Well-known member
yella600rr said:
It sounds as if it would be good practice for me to set up this braking drill on the cul-de-sac in front of our house and start practicing this at a slow speed, as it would give me some reflex training.
Sounds like an intersting plan Theresa. Just be careful is you're going to actually setup some kind of a drill of this kind, as the "no brake zones" (the cardboard, etc) need to be just that (get OFF the brakes from "just prior to", until "slightly past"), or the penalty could be pretty nasty!

Effective "interval braking" skills begin by looking a good distance ahead of you, in dynamically analyzing the traction conditions that your tire will be passing over moment-by-moment. The second element is the ability to then program your brain to be able to quickly make precise adjustments in the amount of braking force you're applying at the lever, as your tire passes over each discrete piece of real estate. Getting the "timing" just right, to reflect the braking force mapping plan, is essential.

This is a skill that's important for any form of motorcycle riding, but becomes increasingly critical to master for riders that have a focus on "going faster" at the track. Also a must-have skill for riding safely in the rain. Being able to perfectly match the amount of brake lever force to the amount of available traction, millisecond by millisecond, is the secret to mastering the art a maximum braking efficiency.

The key is viewing the application of brake lever pressure as much more than "an on-off switch", even on the racetrack where sticky tires and warm conditions offer traction levels that are high enough to come close to the 100% braking power level. Viewing brake lever application pressure as an infinitely variable force, over a 0% to 100% range, is where it all starts.

If you do the drill Theresa, please report back on the results, as it'd be interesting to hear. Best of luck.

Gary J
 

nweaver

Well-known member
Gary:

Stupid question: Is it just me or does what it sounds like in many ways you are advocating practicing what ABS does automatically?

(albeit slightly differently, ABS can't "see" the road ahead, only the traction where it actually is.)
 
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