Women on BARF: Continuing the conversation... (from Riding as an Introvert)

[DucatiHoney]

****budman edit

We are going to set up a forum for the ladies if barf to discuss this without men participating. I am condos unerring some other extreme actions as well. This being a more open forum so all you guys can cat call each other and be assholes all you want.

FYI. I am not a misogynist, racist or any other ist and if you think I am pleas leave barf now. ****

Never want to see you back here. This thread blew up in a big way, because a member was suspended for what he believed was his appropriate reaction to a comment that he (and many others) felt was supporting "rape culture" or at least a poor and dated view of today's woman. For those that don't know about it, or want to know more please check this out.

The original thread was closed by OP request, however, we feel that the topics raised are important and we want to hear more from you. Please share your thoughts and feel free to be candid. TOS will be enforced per the usual, but we know you're all capable of conveying an intelligent message without insults, name-calling or other creative forms of poo-flinging.

Thanks guys...and gals!

 

[budman]

I would like to add this:

Please look at the TOS.. see how it is worded and do your thing.

In the end I would hope for a straight forward application and how you would make the determination that a violation would be recognized.

 

[Honey Badger]

I would like to hear how this can best be enforced in a reasonable, fair manner. Subjective ideas are impossible to enforce - protecting feelings is impossible. That doesn't mean there can't be some measurable, enforceable changes that can help protect larger groups.

As a woman, I can't pretend that what we see on BARF doesn't happen in real life, too...in fact, I see it ALL the time, deal with it ALL the time. I'm all for working to change that culture a bit, but would love to hear how others propose we do that. I have my methods, but my views are limited to my experiences and knowledge, and I look forward to the feedback from the masses.

 

[ninja666]

Why is this thread now buried under Community > Website?

Not a place I think most people will be exposed to this discussion as I think they should be. Please put this back to General or another place with more visibility.

I think the most fundamental element of change is education. It seems like not even the BARF bosses know what constitute Rape Culture, imagine the general population.

What about start by listing what Rape Culture means and what it entails and add that list to the TOS with examples so the admins and mods know what to look for?

 

[weak_link]

Posted this in the other thread but will do so here as well:

It would be interesting to see a proposed TOS amendment posted from a group of women to see how, specifically, they would be written to address this. Last time we had one of these threads I asked a lot of questions trying to get at the root of how one would modify the TOS to specifically target this but I think a lot of people got the wrong idea in that they thought I was supporting misogyny or trying to find ways around it. No, I was looking at it as an ex mod and trying to figure out how to create guidelines that are fairly clear and easy for the average member to interpret and follow, as well as the mods to enforce. A problem has been identified but I don't see a lot of suggestions on how to fix it. Z3 has offered some suggestions but again, I would like to see proposed solutions in terms of TOS changes. How do you task moderators with trying to make most happy if it is unclear what the guideline is? "Don't be a dick" doesn't seem to cut it but distilling down a policy that addresses the issue while still allowing for heated discourse seems to be a very real challenge.
__________________

 

[latindane]

If the mods believe that a post is supporting rape culture, the TOS could catch that with something about "glorifying violence" or some other appropriate wording? That would catch some other unwanted stuff too. I don't think it's about a protected class, but about a kind of violence which happens to be disproportionately suffered by women.

What z3n was pointing out (about it being women's perception that matter) I think is taken care of by the fact that women are well represented in the mod group.

 

[Smash Allen]

I would like to have a meet up in real life of participants of the previous thread including Karbon, WFO, Little Birdy, Phanuel, Z3n, ninja666, Thumperx, etc.

I have found it is easier to reconcile differences and come to mutual understanding when engaging with a real human rather than an avatar and some text on a screen that is difficult to pull context, tone, and other subtleties.

I realize that this is not an easy thing to ask and not likely to happen, but how about a thought exercise instead.

What if the thread originally happened in real life at a lunch break during a group ride. Would it have descended into madness? Would we have been removed from the restaurant after each one at the table got onto their chair and started giving a speech?

I don't think so. I think that when WFO said the same thing, there would have been mutual eye-rolling across the entire table. He would pick up on the social cues and maybe one or two people would address the statement as to why they thought it was inappropriate. Then someone makes a funny and it's all good. Until someone skips out on the check :rofl

Would Karbon have said the same exact thing at that table? I don't know if it's appropriate to ask the question as he is still on a break.

My point is that I believe the TOS should aim to keep discussions lunch-table appropriate. We are all friends here who would (and often do) share meals together. Why can't we bring that same attitude online?

 

[Bassem]

Why is this thread now buried under Community > Website?

Not a place I think most people will be exposed to this discussion as I think they should be. Please put this back to General or another place with more visibility.

I think the most fundamental element of change is education. It seems like not even the BARF bosses know what constitute Rape Culture, imagine the general population.

What about start by listing what Rape Culture means and what it entails and add that list to the TOS with examples so the admins and mods know what to look for?

Please read the TOS Karen, and give us an example how would change it with the goals above in mind.. Exact wording please, because that's very important so that it can be properly enforced.

Unfortunately, you cannot codify the "I know it when I see it". Most can see it and get it, but it has to be on paper.

This is an opportunity to fix something you believe is broken. We can all handwave and say how we want things, but someone needs to get it done. By your and other's admission you believe mods/admins don't 'get it', so they can't really change things in a way to make the people with grievances happy.

EDIT: Agreed with Karen. This should probably not be buried here. It'll get more visibility in 'general'.

 

[ninja666]

Please read the TOS Karen, and give us an example how would change it with the goals above in mind.. Exact wording please, because that's very important so that it can be properly enforced.

Unfortunately, you cannot codify the "I know it when I see it". Most can see it and get it, but it has to be on paper.

This is an opportunity to fix something you believe is broken. We can all handwave and say how we want things, but someone needs to get it done. By your and other's admission you believe mods/admins don't 'get it', so they can't really change things in a way to make the people with grievances happy.

EDIT: Agreed with Karen. This should probably not be buried here. It'll get more visibility in 'general'.

Yes. I agree. I don't think I could do it by myself. I think a group of women should come up with the wording and run by the admins. (i can certainly be one of them) Raise hands if you can spare some time.

 

[rebekahlynn]

:wave

 

[ninja666]

I would like to have a meet up in real life of participants of the previous thread including Karbon, WFO, Little Birdy, Phanuel, Z3n, ninja666, Thumperx, etc.

I have found it is easier to reconcile differences and come to mutual understanding when engaging with a real human rather than an avatar and some text on a screen that is difficult to pull context, tone, and other subtleties.

I realize that this is not an easy thing to ask and not likely to happen, but how about a thought exercise instead.

What if the thread originally happened in real life at a lunch break during a group ride. Would it have descended into madness? Would we have been removed from the restaurant after each one at the table got onto their chair and started giving a speech?

I don't think so. I think that when WFO said the same thing, there would have been mutual eye-rolling across the entire table. He would pick up on the social cues and maybe one or two people would address the statement as to why they thought it was inappropriate. Then someone makes a funny and it's all good. Until someone skips out on the check :rofl

Would Karbon have said the same exact thing at that table? I don't know if it's appropriate to ask the question as he is still on a break.

My point is that I believe the TOS should aim to keep discussions lunch-table appropriate. We are all friends here who would (and often do) share meals together. Why can't we bring that same attitude online?

I'm quite often at the SF meets. Stop by and say hi!
I guarantee you. Karbon would have said the same thing at the table. And I would have too, with the same force as he did here.

 

[ninja666]

:wave

:thumbup

 

[Roadstergal]

What if the thread originally happened in real life at a lunch break during a group ride...

I think that when WFO said the same thing, there would have been mutual eye-rolling across the entire table. He would pick up on the social cues and maybe one or two people would address the statement as to why they thought it was inappropriate.

That's not a hypothetical. Sentiments like that get expressed in real life all the time. I usually don't say anything, try to move the conversation or myself on.

The context around why I do that is a microcosm of what's up for discussion, but I felt I got a few pretty good 'STFU, whiny beeyotches' from some of the mods and regular posters in the now-closed thread.

It would suck to leave BARF and lose the camaraderie and friendships I have developed thanks to this site. But the taste in my mouth is just not good right now.

I just want to add that I appreciate Z3n's comments near the end of the thread about the complication of when you don't start off from an equal background, 'equal treatment' - isn't.

 

[rebekahlynn]

Sigh. I hate to sound like I'm succumbing to online pressure, but I'm the OP of the original. Mods will you un-lock it?

Last night I came back from a funeral and was feeling quite emotional.

Next time I'll just go to sleep instead of reading stuff online.:laughing

Emotions were running pretty high in the last one, I think this new thread might be more productive, honestly. New day and all that.

 

[JesasaurusRex]

missed another gem of a thread i see

 

[Cyclesuzy]

missed another gem of a thread i see

Please keep it respectful and on topic in this thread. It would be great if we could have useful discussion here.

 

[Bzwrthy]

What if the thread originally happened in real life at a lunch break during a group ride. Would it have descended into madness? Would we have been removed from the restaurant after each one at the table got onto their chair and started giving a speech?

I don't think so. I think that when WFO said the same thing, there would have been mutual eye-rolling across the entire table. He would pick up on the social cues and maybe one or two people would address the statement as to why they thought it was inappropriate. Then someone makes a funny and it's all good. Until someone skips out on the check :rofl

Would Karbon have said the same exact thing at that table? I don't know if it's appropriate to ask the question as he is still on a break.

My point is that I believe the TOS should aim to keep discussions lunch-table appropriate. We are all friends here who would (and often do) share meals together. Why can't we bring that same attitude online?

Working towards this level of discussion would be ideal. Speaking for myself, this blew up because of the feelings the Brock Turner rape and verdict brought up. It highlighted the years of bullshit so many of us, and our loved ones, have gone through. It triggered memories that made us feel angry, ineffectual; and, yes, ashamed. And damn mad about "someone" making us feel ashamed again.

Day-in day-out we ignore crappy behavior and put on a pleasant face. Push it down and bottle it up. The cork blew yesterday and it needed to. Now let's work towards calling it out when we see it. Unfortunately the heavier burden will be on us to engage and educate. If someone has never been on the other end of harassment or fear, they may not have a reference point. If their asshattery continues after a respectful discussion, the playing field changes.

 

[Smash Allen]

I'm quite often at the SF meets. Stop by and say hi!
I guarantee you. Karbon would have said the same thing at the table. And I would have too, with the same force as he did here.

Hot damn if that's true about Karbon and your response I am definitely going to make it out there :teeth

Are the SF meets posted in the Social Gatherings forum?

That's not a hypothetical. Sentiments like that get expressed in real life all the time. I usually don't say anything, try to move the conversation or myself on.

The context around why I do that is a microcosm of what's up for discussion, but I felt I got a few pretty good 'STFU, whiny beeyotches' from some of the mods and regular posters in the now-closed thread.

It would suck to leave BARF and lose the camaraderie and friendships I have developed thanks to this site. But the taste in my mouth is just not good right now.

I just want to add that I appreciate Z3n's comments near the end of the thread about the complication of when you don't start off from an equal background, 'equal treatment' - isn't.

Ignoring unwanted behavior is the best way to stop that behavior. Punishment only works if it is able to be used EVERY instance of bad behavior. Rewarding good behavior is the best way to promote good behaviors. Although 'punishing' by calling people out may be the most effective way for self moderation on an online forum.

I don't want anyone to leave BARF, but what do you want if not equal treatment?

Emotions were running pretty high in the last one, I think this new thread might be more productive, honestly. New day and all that.

I agree, the people that actually care about this will be here. The masses who were just popping in, giving their $0.02 and leaving, only add to the white-noise and distract from getting down to the heart of the issue.

Working towards this level of discussion would be ideal. Speaking for myself, this blew up because of the feelings the Brock Turner rape and verdict brought up. It highlighted the years of bullshit so many of us, and our loved ones, have gone through. It triggered memories that made us feel angry, ineffectual; and, yes, ashamed. And damn mad about "someone" making us feel ashamed again.

Day-in day-out we ignore crappy behavior and put on a pleasant face. Push it down and bottle it up. The cork blew yesterday and it needed to. Now let's work towards calling it out when we see it. Unfortunately the heavier burden will be on us to engage and educate. If someone has never been on the other end of harassment or fear, they may not have a reference point. If their asshattery continues after a respectful discussion, the playing field changes.

Who are you??? Because YES, YES, YES :thumbup

 

[Roadstergal]

Although 'punishing' by calling people out may be the most effective way for self moderation on an online forum.

And the person who did that was suspended.

Working towards this level of discussion would be ideal. Speaking for myself, this blew up because of the feelings the Brock Turner rape and verdict brought up. It highlighted the years of bullshit so many of us, and our loved ones, have gone through. It triggered memories that made us feel angry, ineffectual; and, yes, ashamed. And damn mad about "someone" making us feel ashamed again.

Day-in day-out we ignore crappy behavior and put on a pleasant face. Push it down and bottle it up. The cork blew yesterday and it needed to. Now let's work towards calling it out when we see it. Unfortunately the heavier burden will be on us to engage and educate. If someone has never been on the other end of harassment or fear, they may not have a reference point. If their asshattery continues after a respectful discussion, the playing field changes.

A lot of this.

 

[Smash Allen]

And the person who did that was suspended

Unfortunately, as was stated in the old thread, the content/message/meaning was spot on. The delivery, not so appropriate for a public venue. Maybe if everyone else who read the thread was also tipsy as Karbon allegedly was there would be no issue:laughing