What would you do?

[Enchanter]

Two recent threads have gotten me thinking.

#1:
One thread was about a rider that miraculously survived 2 very bad (single vehicle) motorcycle crashes. We learned in previous threads that this rider has a wife and children that have suffered do to his poor decisions. He admits to not being able to control himself on a motorcycle.

In this thread there were people advising him that if he really wants to ride, that he should go ride. A pretty extreme opinion wouldn't you agree?

Other people were telling the guy to come out to hang out with riders at social events and motorcycle races. I was quite shocked. Isn't that like inviting a self admitted recovering alcoholic (that you never met in person), to join you for a lemonade at a local BAR? How would you feel if you later learned that that was one of the triggers to a relapse?

#2:
A rider lost their life recently and for some unknown reason their previous driving history was made public and it got me thinking

If you knew someone that rode recklessly, would you speak to them? Would you attempt to help them ride more safely? Would you try to help them learn skills (mental and physical) to help them ride better?

Would you change your mind if you later learned that that rider lost their life in a single vehicle motorcycle accident?

 

[i_am_the_koi]

Two recent threads have gotten me thinking.

#1: He admits to not being able to control himself on a motorcycle.

In this thread there were people advising him that if he really wants to ride, that he should go ride. A pretty extreme opinion wouldn't you agree?

Other people were telling the guy to come out to hang out with riders at social events and motorcycle races. I was quite shocked. Isn't that like inviting a self admitted recovering alcoholic (that you never met in person), to join you for a lemonade at a local BAR? How would you feel if you later learned that that was one of the triggers to a relapse?

With the suffering that he has put his family through of course there is the argument that he should become more responsible when it comes to his riding and how he rides, but in the end, it's his decision.

How many people probably argued for Evil Knievel to stop jumping for the thought of his family, his kids sake. Makes you wonder if the argument of "Do you want your son to do this and wind up just like you?" was ever mentioned either.

In the end, if he wants to ride, whether it's like an asshat or a sissyface, it's his decision, though it's also his family's decision if they want to continue supporting him in his times of need.

#2:
A rider lost their life recently and for some unknown reason their previous driving history was made public and it got me thinking

If you knew someone that rode recklessly, would you speak to them? Would you attempt to help them ride more safely? Would you try to help them learn skills (mental and physical) to help them ride better?

Would you change your mind if you later learned that that rider lost their life in a single vehicle motorcycle accident?

I have spoken to riders for their riding, asked them why, if they were ok, and so on. the couple of times I've always had different responses, and the hard part seems to be what to do next?

Tell them to leave?

Offer advice or recommend they change their ways?

Unfortunately in my case it caused some strife before and came to a head when I lost a friend ((not to an accident, just to an argument and a difference in opinions)) over how they rode.



Being a noob still ((1 year 18 days on my seca)), I look forward to seeing some good discussion here and hopefully will learn something from other's who have had the same experiences.

 

[sf250gto]

Two recent threads have gotten me thinking.

#1:
One thread was about a rider that miraculously survived 2 very bad (single vehicle) motorcycle crashes. We learned in previous threads that this rider has a wife and children that have suffered do to his poor decisions. He admits to not being able to control himself on a motorcycle.

In this thread there were people advising him that if he really wants to ride, that he should go ride. A pretty extreme opinion wouldn't you agree?

Other people were telling the guy to come out to hang out with riders at social events and motorcycle races. I was quite shocked. Isn't that like inviting a self admitted recovering alcoholic (that you never met in person), to join you for a lemonade at a local BAR? How would you feel if you later learned that that was one of the triggers to a relapse?

I certainly would NOT encourage him to join any group rides...that's just asking for trouble with his already suspect lack of judgement, plus the additional possibility of competition ensuing with bad results. I would strongly suggest that he take his need for speed to the track, first getting some training. On the road he has an obligation to not endanger other users of the road.
I agree with your comparison of the alcoholic...and wouldn't invite him to motorcycle related events.

#2:
A rider lost their life recently and for some unknown reason their previous driving history was made public and it got me thinking

If you knew someone that rode recklessly, would you speak to them? Would you attempt to help them ride more safely? Would you try to help them learn skills (mental and physical) to help them ride better?

Would you change your mind if you later learned that that rider lost their life in a single vehicle motorcycle accident?

If you truly care for the rider you must intervene and encourage them to consider the consequences and work to improve their decision making. Where do you draw the line? The majority of people think getting on a motorcycle is reckless.

George Carlin: Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?

 

[Beauregard]

I would let a sleeping dog lie. In my personal experience, if the person is a dangerous rider there is very little one can do to effect their behavior. If though they are simply a "bad" rider who wants to be better I would absolutely help them in any way I could. They just have to want to.

And for the record: if he's an alcoholic in recovery going to a bar should not be a problem. Please refer to pages 100 & 101 of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."

 

[tzrider]

Two recent threads have gotten me thinking.

#1:
One thread was about a rider that miraculously survived 2 very bad (single vehicle) motorcycle crashes. We learned in previous threads that this rider has a wife and children that have suffered do to his poor decisions. He admits to not being able to control himself on a motorcycle.

In this thread there were people advising him that if he really wants to ride, that he should go ride. A pretty extreme opinion wouldn't you agree?

Other people were telling the guy to come out to hang out with riders at social events and motorcycle races. I was quite shocked. Isn't that like inviting a self admitted recovering alcoholic (that you never met in person), to join you for a lemonade at a local BAR? How would you feel if you later learned that that was one of the triggers to a relapse?

What was interesting in that thread is it seemed the poster wasn't seeking advice, had decided not to ride and was seeking to reconnect with the moto community a bit. He got a bunch of advice anyway.

With the individual in question a choice to not ride is probably the best one he can make for other people's sake and it sounds like that's more or less the conclusion he has come to.

On the matter of hanging out with other riders, it could be a good thing if he spent time with other riders in a context that had nothing to do with riding. Seeing that even among a group of kindred spirits that there are other very enjoyable parts of life might be nice. Going to the races? I kind of had the same reaction you did, but in the end, he's the only one who knows if he would enjoy that and if he could keep his resolve to stay off bikes.

#2:
A rider lost their life recently and for some unknown reason their previous driving history was made public and it got me thinking

If you knew someone that rode recklessly, would you speak to them? Would you attempt to help them ride more safely? Would you try to help them learn skills (mental and physical) to help them ride better?

Would you change your mind if you later learned that that rider lost their life in a single vehicle motorcycle accident?

I have put friendships on the line trying to influence friends to ride more safely. As you know, preaching doesn't usually help, but sometimes making frank observations and reminding them that you care very much about them does. It doesn't hurt if you have some credibility in their eyes on the subject of riding. Otherwise, to some younger minds, it sounds like a bunch of hand wringing from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[Pking]

He admits to not being able to control himself on a motorcycle.

Okay, let's elaborate on this here for a min, so I'll go to the extreme side first....

-How can a person not be able to control themselves on a vehicle that only performs according actions of the operator? Does this person suddenly become possessed when they jump on the bike and go fiddyone/fiddy, insta-crazed mad-man? Not being able to control a bike well is one thing, but to admin "I can't control MYSELF on a bike is like saying I completely have no control of my mental state and my bodily functions once I jump on ANY motorcycle. That's not true.

Just throwing it out there.

 

[flying_hun]

Tim, thanks for posting these questions. I don't know the answers, though I do have opinions. Perhaps some posted here will enlighten those opinions.

 

[Enchanter]

Okay, let's elaborate on this here for a min, so I'll go to the extreme side first....

-How can a person not be able to control themselves on a vehicle that only performs according actions of the operator? Does this person suddenly become possessed when they jump on the bike and go fiddyone/fiddy, insta-crazed mad-man? Not being able to control a bike well is one thing, but to admin "I can't control MYSELF on a bike is like saying I completely have no control of my mental state and my bodily functions once I jump on ANY motorcycle. That's not true.

Just throwing it out there.

Instead of focusing on the last sentence of the first paragraph, maybe try the last sentence of the last paragraph.

The intent of my post was to focus more on his friends or acquaintances. Us. What would you do if you knew a similar person? Would you help him feed his, for lack of a better word, addiction? Would you do so if you knew it was going to end poorly?

I brought up alcoholism, but it could be any addiction. I won't invite a known alcoholic into a bar. I won't ask a known gambler to have dinner with me at the Nugget. But here on BARF we had people that knew what this person had gone through and were still able recommend that he meet them for a drink at the Nugget.

 

[frozenuts]

I have told people in the past at trackdays I have shot that they really should either find an instructor or find another hobby, usually a session or two before they crash.

I have had serious conversations with friends that have a hamfist and suggested changes in their riding style. I have convinced some to get it out of their system at the track. Friends are the easy targets to talk to, but the hardest ones to live with after the conversation if they just don't get it.

Strangers on a group ride just look at me like a slow idiot when I offer suggestions, one of the reasons that I don't really do group rides any more.

I have had a couple people listen and thank me, a couple people not listen, crash, then thank me, and one guy not make it back from our ride. He split off, joined with another group going out to skaggs, and died. He left our group because a few of us pulled him aside and told him that he was riding unsafely.

Motorcyclists have thick skulls and selective hearing. I still try and get through to people, and I will be going through the MSF RCP soon, so maybe I can start getting through to people at an earlier stage.

 

[tzrider]

Motorcyclists have thick skulls and selective hearing.

Yeah, with some of them you don't get through until they've crashed enough that the wear bars are starting to show on their skull. For some people, the danger isn't real or doesn't apply to them until they have proof. Once in a while, as with the guy on Skaggs, they don't survive getting the proof.

 

[oldapeman]

Some people are too stupid or reckless or clueless to be entitled to exercise their right to decide how to behave. Nevertheless, within a very generous range, our lawful society still gives them that right -- they are allowed to ignore their own safety, and the potential impact of their behavior on others. That is the nature of our relatively libertarian society.

A necessary corollary to this libertarian society is our right to free speech. We each individually own the right to express our views, even to those who don't like them, or don't want to hear them. (I am not talking about the power of the government to make laws, or promulgate official propaganda -- I am talking about the right of each individual to speak his or her mind.)

I exercise my right to speak. Where warranted, I tell people they are behaving badly, carelessly, or dangerously. I have done so many times in this forum. (Remember the thread last year about the semi-intoxicated noobie squid who dumped his drunken GF off the back of his bike while doing a wheelie?)

Yes, people are legally allow to be stupid, and act accordingly. They are also fair targets for me telling them they are screwing up.

Too many terrible things have happened in the world when people held their opinions to themselves, and failed to openly speak their minds when something is not right.

 

[Busy Little Shop]

If you knew someone that rode recklessly, would you speak to them?

Have you noticed there is a natural hierarchy when it comes to
motorcycles... namely the fast movers don't listen to slow movers... so
if you're going to give advice make sure you're the fast mover of the
group other wise you're wasting your time...


No matter the kind of bike...
No matter the engine size...
No matter the age / sex or nationality of the rider...
You gots Slow Movers (SM) and you gots Fast Movers (FM)... rare are the
Quick Movers (QM)

SM's are slow because they see the road go by fast as in:
YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIKES...

FM's are fast because they see the road go by slow as in:
hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

QM's are teachers who's influence never stops...

SM's institutionalized slowness whereas FM's practice quickness at every
turn...

Just as motorcyclist learn to ignore unsolicited advice from the non
motorcyclist... FM's learn to ignore unsolicited advice from SM's...
their advice is just a temporary appearance of superiority... SM counsel
is especially irksome if all they can do it get in the way of a FM...

SM's have no business lecturing FM's because they see no safety in
speed...

Skill to do comes from doing... a SM at a FM pace may soon consult a
guard rail...

FM's are even slow to receive advice from other FM's but quick to
receive consult from QM's (Quick Movers)

QM advice is generally judge by results... not by intentions... like
words given freely by Gary Jaehne Andy Burnett and Doc Wong... their
advice is heeded for it's most needed...

 

[VicTim]

I would let a sleeping dog lie. In my personal experience, if the person is a dangerous rider there is very little one can do to effect their behavior. If though they are simply a "bad" rider who wants to be better I would absolutely help them in any way I could. They just have to want to.

And for the record: if he's an alcoholic in recovery going to a bar should not be a problem. Please refer to pages 100 & 101 of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."

^^This, if someone doesn't want to change, I don't have the power to change them. If they asked my advice I would give it to them, if not I don't see any reason to become confrontational. In the end we are all responsible for our own actions.

 

[VicTim]

I exercise my right to speak. Where warranted, I tell people they are behaving badly, carelessly, or dangerously. I have done so many times in this forum. (Remember the thread last year about the semi-intoxicated noobie squid who dumped his drunken GF off the back of his bike while doing a wheelie?)

Yes, people are legally allow to be stupid, and act accordingly. They are also fair targets for me telling them they are screwing up.

I disagree, it's not legal to ride like an asshat. Speeding, wheelies, stunting, all illegal. Most of us are not leo's so we can't do anything about this behaviour except to warn someone.

 

[ThumperX]

I live by a motto:
"PEOPLE WHO WON"T LISTEN HAVE TO FEEL" it comes out awkward in English but it's pretty correct.

The reason I wouldn't want the #1 guy coming to motorcycle events and hanging out with motorcycle folks is because I personally see him as a black cloud. Selfishly, I think it's my good time he would ruin by his behavior and "addiction," not to mention I would feel a personal responsibility if I were the one to invite him.

The second one, I can't be a judge. I know I don't get written up because along with being old, I'm female, as well as having the experience and smarts to stay under the radar and out of the eyes of the law. I'm not an asshat but I do pull the occasional wheelie, lock up my brakes, and intentionally lose traction on my bike.
Again, selfishly, if I see someone that has potential to ruin my day I disassociate. Would I have ridden with Jesse? Probably not, he's a hot young kid pushing the envelope. Was he without skill? I doubt it, he was riding a low hp bike that he pretty much assembled himself. We don't know what led up to his accident, but I do know there been more than one wreck in that same spot :dunno

 

[Aluisious]

Venturing onto General here because it's an important subject.

I have to say after I crashed my Street Triple last spring, a big shift in my thinking was that I no longer encourage other people to ride. It's very dangerous and if people aren't into it so much the better for their health. I only continue riding because it's hard for me not to, and I've grown more cautious on the road.

If I know someone rides (or drives) recklessly I will definitely caution them. If they say something like "I can't control myself" I'd definitely advise them not to ride, it's a hazard to them and others. And like you say, inviting that kind of guy to moto events is like inviting an alcoholic on a wine tasting, it's just a bad idea. Go bowling or something if you want to support the guy.

Can't make people listen and I try to avoid futility, though.

 

[Busy Little Shop]

My definition of Squid:

Someone that assumes more risk when riding than the person calling the name thinks is reasonable...

 

[bikeama]

You can give advice to a real friend, they will listen. If you do not know someone that well they will not listen. Over 10 years ago I came up on a long line of sport bikes riding the pace. Reminded me of H-D riders taking up most of the road. This was on Stagecoach, I stopped in Pescadero to get a coke and buy some bread to take home. The group came into town and one rider came over to lecture to me on my riding and my gear WTF. I was riding my old ST1100 and wearing a Stich. This guy did not know me or how long I have ridden.

 

[bunnygoat]

What did that lecture consist of? Must have been funny!

 

[Enchanter]

You can give advice to a real friend, they will listen. If you do not know someone that well they will not listen. Over 10 years ago I came up on a long line of sport bikes riding the pace. Reminded me of H-D riders taking up most of the road. This was on Stagecoach, I stopped in Pescadero to get a coke and buy some bread to take home. The group came into town and one rider came over to lecture to me on my riding and my gear WTF. I was riding my old ST1100 and wearing a Stich. This guy did not know me or how long I have ridden.

Is it possible to get the subject across without lecturing?