What say you?

[latindane]

One could also play with BP, but doing it mid corner is dangerous as it might upset bike suspension and lead to same result of sliding on ones ass.

One way to move weight around without upsetting the bike is keep your butt and legs/feet planted where they are, and move the head/shoulders into the turn. If you've been pretty much straight up with the bike, that will give you a chunk of help.

If, on the other hand, your upper body is already to the inside and you would need to move on the bike (legs/butt/feet) to put more weight on the inside then I agree with you, you might end up upsetting the bike.

 

[stangmx13]

the easiest way to tighten a line without changing the loading on either tire is to hang off more and weight the inside peg. it doesnt happen as fast as counter-steering, but it works.

as u counter-steered, u actually removed some load from the front tire. it really sounds like u crashed before the front re-loaded fully, which makes me believe the tire was underloaded the entire time. so, increasing the loading on the front tire in this case probably wouldnt have been a bad thing. as such, rolling off or braking slightly might have been a better option.

a very well known instructor once told me that most front end crashes occur from under-loading the front tire. u cant have grip without load after all. knowing that really made me rethink all my crashes and even how i might approach a corner.

 

[afm199]

Cold tires most likely. Combine that with mid corner direction change.

 

[UDRider]

One way to move weight around without upsetting the bike is keep your butt and legs/feet planted where they are, and move the head/shoulders into the turn. If you've been pretty much straight up with the bike, that will give you a chunk of help.

If, on the other hand, your upper body is already to the inside and you would need to move on the bike (legs/butt/feet) to put more weight on the inside then I agree with you, you might end up upsetting the bike.

You have a point. Although it's hard to move upper body without applying input to handle bars if one is not used to it. I think I can do it from all the track days I did, but still has potential to make things worse.

the easiest way to tighten a line without changing the loading on either tire is to hang off more and weight the inside peg. it doesnt happen as fast as counter-steering, but it works.

as u counter-steered, u actually removed some load from the front tire. it really sounds like u crashed before the front re-loaded fully, which makes me believe the tire was underloaded the entire time. so, increasing the loading on the front tire in this case probably wouldnt have been a bad thing. as such, rolling off or braking slightly might have been a better option.

a very well known instructor once told me that most front end crashes occur from under-loading the front tire. u cant have grip without load after all. knowing that really made me rethink all my crashes and even how i might approach a corner.

Hmm, haven't thought of hanging off more and applying pressure to inside peg. Will need to try it sometimes in a parking lot.

Under loading a front tire is an interesting concept that I haven't thought of. When I think of loosing front I usually think of over loading it. How do you know why traction was lost over loading/vs under loading?

Cold tires most likely. Combine that with mid corner direction change.

Thank you for your input. :thumbup It does sound like it. The input was too sharp added too much lean angle for tire temps/conditions. I will have to be more cognoscente of it in the future. In retrospect it's somewhat obvious, but right until the crash I didn't think anything was out of the ordinary. I wasn't going fast, corner wasn't all that sharp. I thought I had enough traction for the correction, and then I found out I didn't. I was riding kind of lazily with ass weight on the saddle.

 

[tzrider]

I was riding kind of lazily with ass weight on the saddle.

It really doesn't matter if you were sitting in the saddle or bearing weight on the pegs. You didn't fall down because of that.

 

[UDRider]

It really doesn't matter if you were sitting in the saddle or bearing weight on the pegs. You didn't fall down because of that.

Oh I know. It was the mid corner input that was to sharp/increased lean angle too much for front tire state at that time.

I was wondering. Could I have saved it if I was weighting in outside peg?

I am kind of exploring Ironbut comments.

 

[tzrider]

I was wondering. Could I have saved it if I was weighting in outside peg?

I don't think it could hurt, but it wouldn't have corrected the problem. It's possible you could have saved it by trying to countersteer the bike upright a bit, but with a front slide you've got to catch it early. The point of no return comes quickly.

 

[UDRider]

Got it. Yeah with that one there was no real "slide" just oh shit bike is falling and then sliding.

 

[Enchanter]

Personally, I find that if I'm riding on the street, in a manner that peg-weighting has an influence, lowering my risk isn't my main focus at the time. In other words, I'm focused on fun. On surface streets, I keep a much wider safety margin. I honestly hate the 'speed is a factor' thoughts almost more than the blaming of the tires, but I can't help but think it was a large part of the equation here.

 

[UDRider]

Personally, I find that if I'm riding on the street, in a manner that peg-weighting has an influence, lowering my risk isn't my main focus at the time. In other words, I'm focused on fun. On surface streets, I keep a much wider safety margin. I honestly hate the 'speed is a factor' thoughts almost more than the blaming of the tires, but I can't help but think it was a large part of the equation here.

The speed was between 20-30 mph.

 

[danate]

Lots of good comments. I'll second the moving your upper body into the turn one. When on the street I pretty much never move my butt over (unless just messing around on a fast turn). If I enter a turn and have traction concerns, I usually lean my upper body further in which happens to add pressure to the outside bar, counter steering the bike up a little more upright while my line stays the same from my weight moving to the inside. I have done this while sliding and it has worked for me (there is a nice huge gravel patch on my road so every night when I turn left onto it I go for a little slide - good practice).

That said, from your description it sounds like you had no warning signs and felt like you had a proper line. As with anything, you can't correct something you don't know is wrong. Considering tire type, outside temp, dampness of the road, gravel or slick looking road is such a crucial factor to staying upright on a bike while riding on the street. Sometimes it gets you and there's not much you can do.

 

[latindane]

You have a point. Although it's hard to move upper body without applying input to handle bars if one is not used to it. I think I can do it from all the track days I did, but still has potential to make things worse.

Since you're pretty centered with your lower body, you can just lock yourself in by hugging (squeezing) the tank with both knees. You get all the support you need to put zero weight on the handlebars as you tilt your upper body to one side or the other.

 

[UDRider]

Lots of good comments. I'll second the moving your upper body into the turn one. When on the street I pretty much never move my butt over (unless just messing around on a fast turn). If I enter a turn and have traction concerns, I usually lean my upper body further in which happens to add pressure to the outside bar, counter steering the bike up a little more upright while my line stays the same from my weight moving to the inside. I have done this while sliding and it has worked for me (there is a nice huge gravel patch on my road so every night when I turn left onto it I go for a little slide - good practice).

That said, from your description it sounds like you had no warning signs and felt like you had a proper line. As with anything, you can't correct something you don't know is wrong. Considering tire type, outside temp, dampness of the road, gravel or slick looking road is such a crucial factor to staying upright on a bike while riding on the street. Sometimes it gets you and there's not much you can do.

Thank you for the input.

Since you're pretty centered with your lower body, you can just lock yourself in by hugging (squeezing) the tank with both knees. You get all the support you need to put zero weight on the handlebars as you tilt your upper body to one side or the other.

:thumbup Also using the core muscles I would imagine.

Also I looked at a tire, and honestly didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Although was kind of hard to tell since I did track days on them, so it's scrubbed to the edges from that.

 

[bcv_west]

Good thread, made me think. From the description and the comments, if I had to guess I'd say the front was under-loaded, and the additional input pushed the front out on you. That could put the bike down very quickly, compared to a rear slide where you'd usually feel it going. Thread has pretty well covered how to slow down safely and hold/improve your line.

 

[afm199]

Right, the short answer is to slow down a little. At the same lean angle, the line will tighten.

Note that any slowing will transfer weight forward. Thus, the idea that using the rear brake is preferable to rolling off isn't valid. In the scenario you were in, rolling off might have slowed you enough. Rolling the gas off, as opposed to chopping it off, will avoid sudden load changes and allow you to better feel what the tires are doing.

Your thoughts about the difference in subtlety between the front and rear brakes are right on. If I need to shed more speed than rolling off will achieve, I pick the bike up a little and use a bit of front brake. As the bike slows I can add lean angle back to keep the line tight.

I'll nitpick this. Rear braking doesn't compress the forks much. Front braking does. Compressing forks changes a lot of things.

 

[stangmx13]

Under loading a front tire is an interesting concept that I haven't thought of. When I think of loosing front I usually think of over loading it. How do you know why traction was lost over loading/vs under loading?

thats a tough question. certain situations are very ez to tell what was going on w/ the front tire. if u r trail braking into the corner and the front lets go while still on the brakes... overloaded. but for the same corner, if u front lets go right as u completely release the brakes... underloaded. for a corner exit, if the front lets go as u crack the throttle... underloaded. but other crash situations are harder to tell and i def dont have all the answers. all the crashes are the same in that u asked too much of the front tire. but in the underloaded crashes, something could have been squashing the front tire into the ground harder to increase grip.

 

[tzrider]

I'll nitpick this. Rear braking doesn't compress the forks much. Front braking does. Compressing forks changes a lot of things.

While true, I doubt very much that fork compression was going to be problematic in this case.

 

[afm199]

While true, I doubt very much that fork compression was going to be problematic in this case.

Hey, I said I was nit picking.

 

[UDRider]

thats a tough question. certain situations are very ez to tell what was going on w/ the front tire. if u r trail braking into the corner and the front lets go while still on the brakes... overloaded. but for the same corner, if u front lets go right as u completely release the brakes... underloaded. for a corner exit, if the front lets go as u crack the throttle... underloaded. but other crash situations are harder to tell and i def dont have all the answers. all the crashes are the same in that u asked too much of the front tire. but in the underloaded crashes, something could have been squashing the front tire into the ground harder to increase grip.

Hmm I see. Thx. :thumbup

Thx for also contibuting Andy and Ernie. :thumbup

 

[tzrider]

Hey, I said I was nit picking.

Yes, you did. :laughing

:kiss