Thunderhill Highside Turn 2 4/1/2018

[Alekos]

youtu.be/s57i5iS60Ws

Quick summary: Session 5, 3rd lap, Group A. Screwed up my line and run wide on Turn 2 (needed to trail brake more probably?), tried to fix the line by increasing lean, however I added a tiny bit more lean as I came on the gas, scraped the peg or boot, the rear lost traction (you can see how much the bike turned, it probably lifted a bit), as soon as it regained traction I went over since I did not stand up (was at full lean).

No major injuries besides some bad bruises and swelling around the right ankle and hand. My helmet and right glove are done. Back protector did a good job. Dainese suit needs some work. Bike is not that bad, track fairings held up well, need clip on and rearset and make sure the front is straight.

Comments and criticism (constructive and destructive) will be highly appreciated.

 

[Smash Allen]

glad you are mostly okay!

with my limited experience it looks like you added a bit more than maintenance throttle after you let off the brakes

your line looks okay with an early apex but the bike wanted to go a bit wide before the second apex and you didn't let it

where were your eyes? had you found the exit apex?

 

[Alekos]

glad you are mostly okay!

with my limited experience it looks like you added a bit more than maintenance throttle after you let off the brakes

your line looks okay with an early apex but the bike wanted to go a bit wide before the second apex and you didn't let it

where were your eyes? had you found the exit apex?

It is very likely that my eyes got fixated on the rider in front of me at turn entry (trying to stay with him or catch up). Once I run wide I aimed for the exit apex, but I think you make a good point, I should have been more patient and let the bike run a bit wide and also my throttle input could have been smoother at that point.

 

[thedub]

Ouch, punishment didn't fit the crime on that one. If you just had a tiny bit less lean angle, or waited a fraction of a second longer to get direction before going back to the throttle you would have gotten away with that mistake. This is why degree of application matters as the pace picks up or the grip is down.

 

[stangmx13]

ya, u def got off the brakes too early. when u are wide, its not a terrible idea to continue to hold that tiny bit of brake pressure until u get back on line. that way u get back to the grippy part of the track without changing inputs AND it forces u to delay your exit until everything is back to normal.

u added throttle and lean angle at the same time in T1 as well. you didnt get much turning done early because u got off the brakes way too soon and your line was wide.

 

[jaybocc2]

Agree with the above. At that entry speed i would have personally trailed in farther and been much smoother and a bit later with the transition to maintenance throttle (and less at that).

Hope you recover quickly! Glad you didn't bust yourself up or the bike too badly.

 

[afm199]

All good advice, about lean angle and throttle application.

 

[khill]

Ouch, punishment didn't fit the crime on that one. If you just had a tiny bit less lean angle, or waited a fraction of a second longer to get direction before going back to the throttle you would have gotten away with that mistake. This is why degree of application matters as the pace picks up or the grip is down.

Correct!

 

[RV6John]

Thanks for sharing.

Did you have any rider aids on the bike disengaged or set to a low threshold?

I'm trying to learn what the limits are to some of the technologies.

 

[Alekos]

Thank you all for the comments, they are super useful and point out things that I need to patiently work on. It's the first time I reach this pace and I believe that due to my inexperience I was rushing to get back on the throttle in order to attempt to stay with the faster rider in front of me (even though I did repeat these mistakes several times that day).
Also, it is obvious to me now that as you push the pace more the refinement and smoothness of your inputs becomes extremely critical, as the bike is not as forgiving to less refined inputs compared to riding at a more relaxed pace
In summary, slowing down a bit in order to work on a) the right time to get off the brakes when trail braking and b) smoothly transitioning to maintance throttle, seem like good things to focus on for now before picking up the pace again.

Thanks for sharing.

Did you have any rider aids on the bike disengaged or set to a low threshold?

I'm trying to learn what the limits are to some of the technologies.

To the contrary, the bike was in Race mode and not Slick mode. The traction control is a bit more intrusive in that mode, but it has actually saved me a couple of times on turn exit when opening the throttle too abruptly at high lean angles. This time was a bit different (!!) due to scraping the peg/boot. Wheelie control is pretty aggressive in Race mode, but I don't mind that for now. Finally, Slick mode has a bit more immediate throttle response, but given my skill level at throttle input, I thought it was better to stay in Race for now. That being said, even though I have tried adjusting the throttle free play, there is still kind of a weird dead band at the beginning of the twist in Race mode, which sometimes makes it hard to find smooth maintenance throttle, so maybe Slick mode would make more sense...

 

[afm199]

To the contrary, the bike was in Race mode and not Slick mode. The traction control is a bit more intrusive in that mode, but it has actually saved me a couple of times on turn exit when opening the throttle too abruptly at high lean angles. .

I'd venture to say that the most important thing you can learn from this is a simple expression: " See your exit, take away lean angle, add throttle."
The second part is important. At high lean angle your traction is impaired and it's super easy to spin up a tire. Thus:" Take away lean angle, add throttle."

Thanks to Ken Hill.

 

[Sportbiker]

Glad you are okay and thanks for sharing.

What was your traction control level set to?

 

[Smash Allen]

Glad you are okay and thanks for sharing.

What was your traction control level set to?

he was in race mode and his foot levered the rear off the ground

rain -> sport -> race -> slick (+/-7)

 

[scotinexcile]

youtu.be/s57i5iS60Ws

Quick summary: Session 5, 3rd lap, Group A. Screwed up my line and run wide on Turn 2 (needed to trail brake more probably?), tried to fix the line by increasing lean, however I added a tiny bit more lean as I came on the gas, scraped the peg or boot, the rear lost traction (you can see how much the bike turned, it probably lifted a bit), as soon as it regained traction I went over since I did not stand up (was at full lean).

No major injuries besides some bad bruises and swelling around the right ankle and hand. My helmet and right glove are done. Back protector did a good job. Dainese suit needs some work. Bike is not that bad, track fairings held up well, need clip on and rearset and make sure the front is straight.

Comments and criticism (constructive and destructive) will be highly appreciated.

It looks like your turn in rate was little slow which caused you to miss the "first" apex"(we can get into the whole is turn 2 1 turn or 2 turns argument later)
I would start listing to all the Ken Hill pop casts and you will get a lot of great information from them. Might just be me but looked like you were a gear to low, looking at the Rev counter. What gear were you in?
Ken/YCRA talk a LOT about 100 points of grip I would rather take that conversation off thread as it is not directly germane to this discussion

It is great that you are trying to learn from your mistake, that shows a level of maturity :afm199 that a lot of track riders dont have. Video means no where to hide :thumbup

 

[jmann]

It looks like your turn in rate was little slow which caused you to miss the "first" apex"(we can get into the whole is turn 2 1 turn or 2 turns argument later)
I would start listing to all the Ken Hill pop casts and you will get a lot of great information from them. Might just be me but looked like you were a gear to low, looking at the Rev counter. What gear were you in?
Ken/YCRA talk a LOT about 100 points of grip I would rather take that conversation off thread as it is not directly germane to this discussion

It is great that you are trying to learn from your mistake, that shows a level of maturity :afm199 that a lot of track riders dont have. Video means no where to hide :thumbup

A gear to low? Sometimes I wonder what gear to take going into a corner also. Are you implying it’s better to get the RPM down and be in a higher gear? I’m still slow, but usually try to have the RPM in the higher range when entering a corner. Am I doing it wrong? Thanks.

 

[afm199]

A gear to low? Sometimes I wonder what gear to take going into a corner also. Are you implying it’s better to get the RPM down and be in a higher gear? I’m still slow, but usually try to have the RPM in the higher range when entering a corner. Am I doing it wrong? Thanks.

The general rule for the gear you enter a corner with is that is the one that gives you the best drive out. The downshift slows you down, but it's not what it's intended to do. You downshift to the gear that puts you in the power band as you are taking away lean angle and rolling the throttle on.

It's not true for every corner, just almost all of them.

 

[jmann]

The general rule for the gear you enter a corner with is that is the one that gives you the best drive out. The downshift slows you down, but it's not what it's intended to do. You downshift to the gear that puts you in the power band as you are taking away lean angle and rolling the throttle on.

It's not true for every corner, just almost all of them.

That’s a good way to explain it. Was just curious, because I’ve watched many fast rider’s videos riding 1000cc bikes around Thunder Hill and some seem to take corners at 5-6k RPM. Looked like OP RPM was around 6k when accident happened. Was that too low / high for that corner?

 

[Alekos]

It looks like your turn in rate was little slow which caused you to miss the "first" apex"(we can get into the whole is turn 2 1 turn or 2 turns argument later)
I would start listing to all the Ken Hill pop casts and you will get a lot of great information from them. Might just be me but looked like you were a gear to low, looking at the Rev counter. What gear were you in?
Ken/YCRA talk a LOT about 100 points of grip I would rather take that conversation off thread as it is not directly germane to this discussion

It is great that you are trying to learn from your mistake, that shows a level of maturity :afm199 that a lot of track riders dont have. Video means no where to hide :thumbup

I was in 3rd gear, revs between 7-8k when I went on the throttle again.

My mistakes/crashes have taught me the best lessons so far so I am trying to take in as much as I can when that happens (hopefully I won't make a habit out of this). The way I see it, there is always going to be someone more experienced, faster, smoother etc that can teach me a few things, so I plan to listen Thanks for the pointer about Ken's podcasts, will definitely listen to those.

 

[scotinexcile]

A gear to low? Sometimes I wonder what gear to take going into a corner also. Are you implying it’s better to get the RPM down and be in a higher gear? I’m still slow, but usually try to have the RPM in the higher range when entering a corner. Am I doing it wrong? Thanks.

I felt your RPM were to low but that is just a personal observation :thumbup

 

[jmann]

I felt your RPM were to low but that is just a personal observation :thumbup

You’re confusing me here. LOL. . Initially you said OP gear was too low. Meaning he should of shifted up 1. Now you said his RPM too low, so he should of shifted down 1. Which one is it? OP states he was in 3rd doing 7-8k RPM. I’d assume he should of been in 2nd doing 8-9k RPM. Does higher RPM make the bike handle better or easier to get around corners or does RPM not matter at all?