Jack the Smack
Well-known member
I've been in a very similar situation and apparently my reaction is to slam on the rear brake, lock the rear tire, and fishtail it between two large vehicles.
The Rolling Blind Spot
- Thread starter DataDan
- Start date
I've been in a very similar situation and apparently my reaction is to slam on the rear brake, lock the rear tire, and fishtail it between two large vehicles.
iehawk
Well-known member
Good for you (almost), but that's not the problem here. It's whether the drivers can see you or not.
And if you happen to move along the path as the blindspot, you'd be invisible... even if you can see the vehicle coming at you bright and clear. Then what would you do?
Great post as always, Dan. I remember reading something similar in a UK motorcycle magazine a year or so back. :thumbup
I know that it's almost like preaching to the choir posting on BARF. I sure hope some of us are brave enough to have a conversation about motorcycle safety topics such as this with family/relatives, friends, co-workers, and so on. :teeth
BritBloke
Member
One of the most thought provoking threads I have read in a while...thank you for putting this up here for us all to think about....I think many of us have developed over the years an in-built awareness of the "blocking" scenarios and how to deal with them but getting it out and up front in our thoughts is valuable to everyone....we cannot afford to "trust" a single road scenario to be in our favor.
SpyderGirl
Life's Short...Ride Naked
I'm a newbie around here and I have to say in just the few short days I've been on this forum I have learned a lot. Thanks for helping us stay safe.
Happy (and safe) riding to all! :ride
Happy (and safe) riding to all! :ride
Charles R
Well-known member
Very good post. Great lessons to learn.
I would add, 'slow down'.
I ALWAYS slow a bit whenever I pass a line of cars. Even if there's not an intersection,(or a driveway, or a dirt road, or, or, or...) there's always the possibility of one of the cars 'jumping' out of line. Reduced speed gives you more time to assess the situation. It also gives more time to act, should the situation dictate.
I would add, 'slow down'.
I ALWAYS slow a bit whenever I pass a line of cars. Even if there's not an intersection,(or a driveway, or a dirt road, or, or, or...) there's always the possibility of one of the cars 'jumping' out of line. Reduced speed gives you more time to assess the situation. It also gives more time to act, should the situation dictate.
Burning1
I'm scareoused!
I'd like to take this one step further... We hear the words 'slow down' a lot, but what does it actually mean in this case?
If I'm comfortable riding at 120 through freeway traffic, does that mean slow down to 80?
If I'm a new rider, working up my courage to do 65 in the rightmost lane, does that mean slow down to 40?
Charles brings up a great point. Slow down doesn't always mean 'go 20% slower...' Sometimes it means: 'Ride slow enough that you'll be able to avoid the accident. Imagine one of those cars suddenly turning out in front of you. Ride at the speed that allows *you* to control the situation.'
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
Though it doesn't involve a motorcycle, here's a tragic reminder of much different kind of hazard that can block the sightline to a potential threat:
[A bicyclist] was struck by a Caltrain at about 4 p.m. and died at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center at about 2:30 a.m. today, said Caltrain spokeswoman Christine Dunn.
The man was stopped at the tracks near the San Jose Diridon station waiting for a northbound train to pass, Dunn said. While the gate was still lowered, he rode onto the tracks and was hit by an empty southbound train, which was traveling about 35 miles an hour, Dunn said.
"One train went through the crossing. It appears as though he didn't notice the train coming from the other direction and went around the gates and into the path of the second train," Dunn said.
RIP, rider. For the rest of us, there's a valuable lesson about the consequences entering an area of cross traffic without an adequate view.The man was stopped at the tracks near the San Jose Diridon station waiting for a northbound train to pass, Dunn said. While the gate was still lowered, he rode onto the tracks and was hit by an empty southbound train, which was traveling about 35 miles an hour, Dunn said.
"One train went through the crossing. It appears as though he didn't notice the train coming from the other direction and went around the gates and into the path of the second train," Dunn said.
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
In the OP of this thread, a blind spot created by a vehicle ahead of the rider and to his right blocked the view to a vehicle crossing from his right. Unable to see the motorcycle and failing to wait for a clear view, the driver pulled out in front of the bike, causing the collision.
In another crash recently, positions of the vehicles were different but again a blind spot created by an uninvolved vehicle contributed. A vehicle directly ahead of the bike screened the line of sight to an oncoming left-turner, and the driver turned behind the screening car but ahead of the motorcycle.
A strategy that can often prevent this kind of crash is MSF's old reliable see and be seen. The see part is easy if the left-turner is visible over, around, or through the screening vehicle. But the be seen part can be a little harder because a position adjustment might be needed. If you're looking around the screening vehicle to see the left-turner, the oncoming driver may not be able to distinguish you as separate threat.
To be easily seen, separate yourself from the screening vehicle in the oncoming driver's field of vision with increased following distance and good lane position. Usually, all it takes is 2 seconds following distance--which you need anyway--and a position in the left-hand third of your lane. If this doesn't give you adequate separation from the screening vehicle, just drop back further. This will help the driver see you as a distinct object to be dealt with. As you get closer to the left-turner, the angle will improve the sightline, so you can move to the right side of your lane, adding protective space cushion.
One mistake a rider can make in situations like this is to rely too heavily on conspicuity--headlights or bright-colored gear. This doesn't do a lot of good if the sightline is partially blocked. Passive visibility measures--conspicuity--are good, but they're no substitute for active visibility--adjustments to position and speed--when a cluttered sightline intervenes.
In another crash recently, positions of the vehicles were different but again a blind spot created by an uninvolved vehicle contributed. A vehicle directly ahead of the bike screened the line of sight to an oncoming left-turner, and the driver turned behind the screening car but ahead of the motorcycle.
A strategy that can often prevent this kind of crash is MSF's old reliable see and be seen. The see part is easy if the left-turner is visible over, around, or through the screening vehicle. But the be seen part can be a little harder because a position adjustment might be needed. If you're looking around the screening vehicle to see the left-turner, the oncoming driver may not be able to distinguish you as separate threat.
To be easily seen, separate yourself from the screening vehicle in the oncoming driver's field of vision with increased following distance and good lane position. Usually, all it takes is 2 seconds following distance--which you need anyway--and a position in the left-hand third of your lane. If this doesn't give you adequate separation from the screening vehicle, just drop back further. This will help the driver see you as a distinct object to be dealt with. As you get closer to the left-turner, the angle will improve the sightline, so you can move to the right side of your lane, adding protective space cushion.
One mistake a rider can make in situations like this is to rely too heavily on conspicuity--headlights or bright-colored gear. This doesn't do a lot of good if the sightline is partially blocked. Passive visibility measures--conspicuity--are good, but they're no substitute for active visibility--adjustments to position and speed--when a cluttered sightline intervenes.
Driving the truck: Pretty simple case of not enough following distance. I make sure (with few exceptions) I can come to a stop before the car ahead if they decide to hit the brakes.
Driving the Black car: 1) when a car behind me is too close or stuff ahead gets weird (both in this example), I give extra braking room to the car in front. I want to be able to stop with at most 3/4 of my usual braking and not hit. This allows me to accomplish 2) When braking for situations in front of me I break harder than I need to to stop in time, this makes the car behind realize that yes they DO need to hit the brakes now. After the initial braking I judge the closing distance between me and the car behind and ease up if I need to give him room.
DataAngel
Well-known member
I am in the same boat as Andreas, I remember reading this tread a while back, a LONG while back and to me the rolling blindspot was always a subconcious duh for... however after I had read this thread, its now more concious, a reminder that i cannot be seen and to always be on the look out.
I'm OaklandLion
Well-known member
bump == because it's so important
It happened to me today, but I was ready. I honestly felt bad for the driver pulling out because there was no way for them to see me.
A honk and friendly waved.....
It happened to me today, but I was ready. I honestly felt bad for the driver pulling out because there was no way for them to see me.
A honk and friendly waved.....
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
Glad this thread is helping people spot these hazards. If you're like me, you get quite a bit of satisfaction from identifying a developing problem and taking action to avert it.
Earlier this week I saw a rider who obviously recognized the potential for an RBS crash and made sure it didn't occur. As it happens, he was in no danger because I was driving the car he saw as a threat, but the rider's action is still worth mentioning.
I was approaching a tee intersection with a 3-way stop, coming up the leg and preparing to turn left onto the crossbar. There are two left-turn lanes, and I was in the one on the right with a van next to me on the left. As I neared the stop sign, I caught a glimpse of a motorcycle coming to a stop on the crossbar of the tee to my left. He got there first and had the right of way over me and the van. But, though he knew I was there, he didn't know if I saw him because of the van between us. So he accelerated from the stop sign but came nearly to a stop in front of the van until he could see what I was going to do. I waved; he rode on.
That rider's sense of the danger posed by obstructed sightlines is going to serve him well.
Earlier this week I saw a rider who obviously recognized the potential for an RBS crash and made sure it didn't occur. As it happens, he was in no danger because I was driving the car he saw as a threat, but the rider's action is still worth mentioning.
I was approaching a tee intersection with a 3-way stop, coming up the leg and preparing to turn left onto the crossbar. There are two left-turn lanes, and I was in the one on the right with a van next to me on the left. As I neared the stop sign, I caught a glimpse of a motorcycle coming to a stop on the crossbar of the tee to my left. He got there first and had the right of way over me and the van. But, though he knew I was there, he didn't know if I saw him because of the van between us. So he accelerated from the stop sign but came nearly to a stop in front of the van until he could see what I was going to do. I waved; he rode on.
That rider's sense of the danger posed by obstructed sightlines is going to serve him well.
AutoTuneKills
Young and Recklesss
great read man i learned alot
John S.
Well-known member
Old post but circumstances don't change
Years ago I worked in the City next to San Jose as an LEO. My thoughts go out to a brother Officer and his wife, what a shame. Even though this happened 4 years ago, the circumstances are timeless.
The response by the responsible driver is fairly typical and in most cases its true. Not an excuse, but subconsciously or not drivers of cars aren't tuned in to be on the look out for motorcyclists. That is why we are constantly told to ride like you are invisible, because in reality to many drivers we are. It was said the driver didn't see the the Officer because cars making a right turn onto the road he was coming out of blocked his view. You can deduce if that is true then in theory the same cars would have blocked the view of him from the motorcyclist point of view. To me that doesn't relieve the driver one bit for not only violating the right of way of the motorcyclist from a stop sign, but also I don't see any mitigating circumstances either (unless there is an road engineering flaw) when this event gets its day in Civil Court. We have as much right to be on the roadway as a car. For example, if you are rear ended and killed I don't buy the argument that if you had been in a car you could have survived, therefore the responsible driver should treated with less scrutiny.
Every driver has a responsibility to be aware of unforeseen possibilities, in this case the motorcyclist legally in his lane. This reminds me of a common right of way accident scenario whereby a car traveling down the two way left turn lane in preparation of making a left turn gets hit by a car coming out of a driveway, coming from right to left. This to me relates to the term "rolling blind spot". It occurs with frequency in heavy traffic shy of an intersection when traffic stacks up and one then two then three drivers stop (in the case of a three lane split roadway) in their respective lanes to yield to the outgoing driver. A courtesy service well taken, but an invitation to be extra cautious. Actually the stopped driver in the number one lane has to be aware of the fact if he signals the driver to continue across his lane with a hand gesture he could be partially held responsible in Civil Court in the event of an accident. So if your going to provide hand signals, be aware of this and be careful. We all know to be aware of these situations developing in front of us and I never proceed pass the "gap" in traffic as described above because you have identified a potential accident in the making. You know Murphy's Law applies and there will be a car cutting in front of you, even if you can't see it yet.
I hate to Monday morning quarterback but based on what I've heard so far that same set of circumstances at the accident scene in Sonora has been duplicated many times. You should recognize based on your peripheral vision the potential danger forming ahead and prepare for the worst. The driver of the car pulling away from the stop sign has the legal responsibility to yield the right of way, but ultimately you are the only one that can save your own ass. Some would say there is nothing you can do if a driver pulls out directly in front of you for no reason, "out of the blue". I argue again in the same way professional motorcycle instructors and racers always talk about looking up the road. That includes roadway appraisal and peripheral objects. Once you see that car or truck getting ready to pull out in front of you there are mannerisms the driver makes that could be interpreted as warnings. Much in the same way we used the term "furtive" when it came to someone just about ready to commit a crime, i.e., "furtive eye movements".
Again, its a sad situation all the way around, obviously, this had to be extra tragic if they had kids.
Years ago I worked in the City next to San Jose as an LEO. My thoughts go out to a brother Officer and his wife, what a shame. Even though this happened 4 years ago, the circumstances are timeless.
The response by the responsible driver is fairly typical and in most cases its true. Not an excuse, but subconsciously or not drivers of cars aren't tuned in to be on the look out for motorcyclists. That is why we are constantly told to ride like you are invisible, because in reality to many drivers we are. It was said the driver didn't see the the Officer because cars making a right turn onto the road he was coming out of blocked his view. You can deduce if that is true then in theory the same cars would have blocked the view of him from the motorcyclist point of view. To me that doesn't relieve the driver one bit for not only violating the right of way of the motorcyclist from a stop sign, but also I don't see any mitigating circumstances either (unless there is an road engineering flaw) when this event gets its day in Civil Court. We have as much right to be on the roadway as a car. For example, if you are rear ended and killed I don't buy the argument that if you had been in a car you could have survived, therefore the responsible driver should treated with less scrutiny.
Every driver has a responsibility to be aware of unforeseen possibilities, in this case the motorcyclist legally in his lane. This reminds me of a common right of way accident scenario whereby a car traveling down the two way left turn lane in preparation of making a left turn gets hit by a car coming out of a driveway, coming from right to left. This to me relates to the term "rolling blind spot". It occurs with frequency in heavy traffic shy of an intersection when traffic stacks up and one then two then three drivers stop (in the case of a three lane split roadway) in their respective lanes to yield to the outgoing driver. A courtesy service well taken, but an invitation to be extra cautious. Actually the stopped driver in the number one lane has to be aware of the fact if he signals the driver to continue across his lane with a hand gesture he could be partially held responsible in Civil Court in the event of an accident. So if your going to provide hand signals, be aware of this and be careful. We all know to be aware of these situations developing in front of us and I never proceed pass the "gap" in traffic as described above because you have identified a potential accident in the making. You know Murphy's Law applies and there will be a car cutting in front of you, even if you can't see it yet.
I hate to Monday morning quarterback but based on what I've heard so far that same set of circumstances at the accident scene in Sonora has been duplicated many times. You should recognize based on your peripheral vision the potential danger forming ahead and prepare for the worst. The driver of the car pulling away from the stop sign has the legal responsibility to yield the right of way, but ultimately you are the only one that can save your own ass. Some would say there is nothing you can do if a driver pulls out directly in front of you for no reason, "out of the blue". I argue again in the same way professional motorcycle instructors and racers always talk about looking up the road. That includes roadway appraisal and peripheral objects. Once you see that car or truck getting ready to pull out in front of you there are mannerisms the driver makes that could be interpreted as warnings. Much in the same way we used the term "furtive" when it came to someone just about ready to commit a crime, i.e., "furtive eye movements".
Again, its a sad situation all the way around, obviously, this had to be extra tragic if they had kids.
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DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
Thanks for an excellent post, John.
This is one of those crashes that is clearly the legal responsibility of the driver who violated the motorcyclist's right of way, but which will happen due to the unique circumstance. It's not one of those deals where a driver says "I didn't see him!" when the motorcycle was in plain view, because the driver really couldn't see the motorcycle. As you suggest, it happens fairly often. I have literally dozens of them in my archives.
The other scenario you mention--stop-and-go traffic opening a gap for a crossing vehicle, but also screening the view between the crossing driver and a free-moving lane--is one I describe in the thread Traffic Tactics: Left-Turning Vehicles (see post #26). You might be interested in some of the other situations discussed in that thread too.
This is one of those crashes that is clearly the legal responsibility of the driver who violated the motorcyclist's right of way, but which will happen due to the unique circumstance. It's not one of those deals where a driver says "I didn't see him!" when the motorcycle was in plain view, because the driver really couldn't see the motorcycle. As you suggest, it happens fairly often. I have literally dozens of them in my archives.
The other scenario you mention--stop-and-go traffic opening a gap for a crossing vehicle, but also screening the view between the crossing driver and a free-moving lane--is one I describe in the thread Traffic Tactics: Left-Turning Vehicles (see post #26). You might be interested in some of the other situations discussed in that thread too.
John S.
Well-known member
Thanks Dan. I read your other post and it was very informative and right on. I appreciate it and I hope others do as well your contribution to safety and sanity. However, based on what I see up in the hills on any given weekend nothing has changed, the same misguided characters are up there showing off and trying to kill themselves.
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
For some reason, these RBS crashes just keep on coming. Here's one from Riverside County over the past weekend:
The 27-year-old man suffered serious head injuries Saturday after his motorcycle rammed into a truck coming out of a driveway at 10:20 a.m. Saturday...
The motorcyclist was passing another truck that was pulling into the same driveway when he hit the truck exiting the driveway, McDonald said. He then flew over the hood of the truck upon collision...
And here's an excellent first-person account posted today by a rider from Alberta in the Motorcycle Tips & Techniques forum: Tumbling Dice. The writer/crasher does a superb job of analyzing his thoughts leading up to the incident and his reactions.The motorcyclist was passing another truck that was pulling into the same driveway when he hit the truck exiting the driveway, McDonald said. He then flew over the hood of the truck upon collision...
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
And the lesson of this thread is that sometimes a driver doesn't see a motorcycle because another vehicle blocks the view between the two.
Disparaging the attentiveness of other motorists doesn't make you any safer. Recognizing situations that lead to crashes and adopting tactics to prevent them from becoming crashes can.