My bike idles at 9mph in first gear. So lets say I am stopping in first gear from 30mph. If I only apply the brakes and cruise in first gear while stopping, anything lower than 9mph and I am clearly fighting momentum as well as the power put to the rear wheel from idle. At some point the clutch lever must be pulled in or I am just extending my stopping distance and eventually will stall the bike if I wait too long. So the question is when to pull that clutch lever in. I think there are a lot of different reasonable answers out there but each rider should find what works best for them and their bike.
Smooth stopping tricks?
- Thread starter sportsluvr
- Start date
This. Way this.
George, I've never had a false neutral I liked...and that is essentially what pulling the clutch in all the way is. Too much load on the front with the clutch in and too little on the rear, IME...even in street riding. Like Robert said, people need to get comfortable working/ feathering the clutch on decelerations. For new riders, I get the idea behind not giving them too much to do at one time. Once over the hump of learning to ride though, I don't see more control in pulling the clutch all the way in and freewheeling to a stop.
Unless I understood your post incorrectly?
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motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
What possible benefit is adding the complexity of feathering the clutch while you're stopping in a quick stop?
None that I can think of same way with anyone else that's written a book on the topic.
It's a lot simpler to simply squeeze the clutch and keep it in while applying both front and rear brakes smoothly to the stop and downshifting to make sure you're in first gear before you stop.
There's nothing to be gained from working the clutch. The rear brake is already doing all of the stopping that the rear tire is going to do because the rear brake is using all the rear tire traction and the rear brake is a lot easier to control than using the engine to brake.
Frisco
Well-known member
I think you two probably agree. Clutch in for emergency full stops, downshifting for normal stops or slowing.
The fact is, we rarely make emergency stops, that’s why they should be practiced regularly. 99% of my riding I’m downshifting while braking, ready to go if needed.
The fact is, we rarely make emergency stops, that’s why they should be practiced regularly. 99% of my riding I’m downshifting while braking, ready to go if needed.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
There should only be one technique because your "normal" stopping technique will be what you do when you need to do a quick stop such as getting cut off by a car.
This has been shown in many many ways and is why people that do dangerous things drill on correct technique over and over again.
There isn't any reason to make stopping more complicated by cycling the clutch with each downshift as you are slowing to a stop. There is no gain, so why do it.
Frisco
Well-known member
I totally disagree. No way am I blipping and downshifting in an emergency stop. In fact, it's all I can do to pull in the clutch. Ask me how I know....
I do think there is a benefit to having the bike in a gear appropriate for the speed you are traveling for normal stops. This allows you to accelerate efficiently if the situation changes. You're in the proper gear and ready to go.
sportsluvr
Well-known member
This is exactly what I'm doing now but without any application of the rear brakes. I'm gradually adding the latter in my practice sessions.
Another dynamic I have experienced is that, while coming to a stop should the light now change to green, I'm in the wrong gear at times.
stangmx13
not Stan
slipping the clutch while downshifting allows for more positive shifts and will decrease any change of traction should the clutch ever be re-engaged. if slipped the right amount, theres no drawback. it doesnt affect stopping distance and offers those benefits.
this thread is titled "smooth stopping tricks", not "emergency stopping tricks".
this thread is titled "smooth stopping tricks", not "emergency stopping tricks".
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Ask any expert or consult any riding curriculum and they all say your quick stops will substantially mirror how you do your normal routine stops. So discussing how to effectively stop quickly is very relevant to how to stop for routine stops.
motomania2007
TC/MSF/CMSP/ Instructor
Why are you blipping at all? Totally unnecessary. The clutch lever stays in so there is no need to blip the throttle.
You can and should have the proper gear for current speed. This is why you don't squeeze the clutch at say 50mph and immediately click the shifter several times to first gear ...
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stangmx13
not Stan
Yes I know. And you’ve made sure everyone else knows too. Now get back on topic and stop ruining the thread.
stangmx13
not Stan
If u can’t downshift to first at 50mph, you haven’t mastered braking or clutch control. It’s def not easy but can be done very smoothly. Keep working on it.
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Did you really just chastise someone to get back on-topic, then immediately comment on downshifting into first at 50mph?
OP isn't asking about advanced (calculus), or even intermediate (algebra) skills. He's asking beginner (addition/subtraction) level stuff. Trying to teach or talk him into high level skills is doing him a disservice.
Jeebus there sure is a lot of 'I know what's best' in this thread. All of you (both of you) need to relax a bit. This thread is looking at the OP's question in the rearview mirror.
stangmx13
not Stan
Seems on topic to me, esp since it contributes to my point that one should use the clutch properly to contribute to smooth braking. I also typed that to call attention to the fact it was a bad example since it’s possible and an intermediate technique.
Ya the OP isn’t there yet. I didn’t tell the OP to practice that and wouldn’t yet. But I def think one should know what is possible in these situations, both in the tools available and outcomes. Telling the OP to always pull the clutch to the bar will handicap their learning. Telling the OP to consider slipping the clutch opens up possibilities that will be used later, maybe even soon.
Frisco
Well-known member
You’re a CMSP instructor, yes? Do you teach your students to lean into the curves? Of course you do. How about a different type of turning, swerves? I bet you teach them to remain neutral on the bike and let it move underneath them.
These are different types of turning, just like there are different types of braking. Practice them all. I’m as likely to downshift through the gears in an emergency braking situation as I am to hang off the bike during a swerve. Even beginners need to understand that different situations require different techniques.
ThinkFast
Live Long
Anticipate. See how much you can do by anticipating stops and using momentum and carefully timed downshifts to modulate your speed. Pretend you’re trying to make your brake pads last forever. I like to see how long I can go riding in traffic without putting my feet down. This requires a lot of planning ahead. Good brake control is required.
Practice. Just like learning how to stop a car. You learn to ease up on pedal pressure just as the car comes to a stop. Same thing with bikes. Practice it. There are a lot of potential inputs, including clutch, gear changes, and front and rear brakes. Focus on front brake and downshifting first, timing clutch all the way in and held for just before complete stop. Practice. Practice.
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I gave it a few days to think about why we're seeing things differently. Either it's a beginner VS more advanced rider discussion or perhaps we're speaking about different types of bikes. I'm not sure. However, I am quite sure that using the rear brake in an emergency situation isn't the best on a sportbike. I'd much rather use the engine braking, especially with the aid of modern slipper clutches, etc (even though I still slip my clutch by hand). This probably is also the place to insert the all too typical "practice at the track what you'll use on the street" comment here.
I don't understand the concept behind taking all the load off the engine for an emergency stop, much less a normal stop for anything but a new rider. I'm with Robert completely on clutch usage. I'm also with Robert in that our riding is almost exclusively a series of emergency stops; give or take 7-8 times in less than two minutes. Rinse and repeat. At no time are we pulling the clutch in and freewheeling the bike nor are we using much rear brake (I'm assuming with Robert, from when I've ridden with him). Instead, we're letting the slipper do it's job, using our hand to the do the rest on the clutch and using max front braking several times a lap.
George, I asked the question on false neutrals because aside from losing the front on brake application (or not having brakes at all), false neutrals are about the scariest thing on corner entry. The bike just freewheels past the turn in point and won't slow down at all...the rear brake is pretty useless due to the massive weight balance to the front and things get pretty interesting fast. Just hope you can get up a gear quick enough and make it stick. That's essentially what braking with the clutch in is, so I don't understand the idea that it gives more control. Sure, if I'm on the street going to bux, who cares what technique I'm using. I'm doing what, 40-50mph?
I think far more important than worrying about clutch usage in a panic stop (avoidance emergency) are the eyes and being disciplined to look at one's escape route and not what a rider thinks they're going to hit. IME and IMO. I've got lots of experience there...
OP, back to on topic, or more on point as to your question: It's not how you apply the brakes, but how you release the lever that leads to a smooth stop. The idea is to not bounce the front end in the last 2-3 feet by not releasing the lever all at once. You should be in the habit of applying braking force by squeezing the lever, holding as long as needed and then releasing in an effort to control the rebound of the front end predictably. It's all in how you release the front brakes...which has lots of more benefits to riding than just smooth stops. Best part of our hobby...lots to learn and practice with instant gratification!
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It sounds like it's on-topic when it supports your point, and off-topic when it doesn't.
My thoughts on this...bare with me...
I don't agree that racers use emergency braking multiple times a lap. I see the differences as:
RACE: Maximum braking at initial application, then trailing off as lean increases.
STREET: Maximum braking with progressive increasing pressure until stopped. Bike is vertical through the process nine times out of ten.
RACE: Use the traction available to you, and occasionally use more than available.
STREET: Maintain a large traction reserve.
RACE: A plan on when to begin braking, a known location. It's a proactive skill and generally methodical, calm, time to think.
STREET: No plan. True panic. Damn difficult to NOT look at the solid object that just turned into our path (most common multi-vehicle crash).
RACE: No panic (see above), generally not trying to avoid stationary object that jumps into your path. Generally don't think about death when "emergency braking" multiple times a lap.
STREET: Panic / fear of the unknown (will I die).
RACE: A whole different animal (person) grasping the bars. Most racers are constantly attempting to improve their skill set. Calculated risk takers (consciously).
STREET: Most streetriders learn the most basic of skills and stop there. They have no 'need' for more advanced skills "I took the (beginner) class, I know how to ride." Almost never factor risk into their ride. Don't think about it.
So what does all that mean? We all know the answer. The street and track are different. What we fail to understand is the biggest variable is the rider. The street and streetriders need to be given and practice the skill that produces the best result in manner that is easy to understand and apply. Multi-tasking is not good in these life or death events. Squeeze the clutch and brake. 2 things, that's it. It's all most streetriders can handle. They are already going to be less effective stopping because a huge part of their brain is gripped by fear. There isn't much more processing capacity left over for braking (very similar to the traction circle, or K. Code's money reference).
One of the things skilled motorcyclist fail to grasp is the learning curve. I've compared it to math before. We must be proficient at addition & subtraction before moving onto multiplication. The proficient at that before moving to algebra, then the same before calculus, etc.
Feathering the clutch and downshifting into 1st at 50mph is nothing more than trying to teach an elementary school student algebra. It actually slows their learning.
This is similar to the BARF mantra of "get your suspension set-up" first. Or "fix your body position" instead of eye placement / where to look.
Being a good mentor (notice I didn't say teacher or instructor) is not just knowing more than the newbie, it's knowing what to expose them to and when to do it.
Tl;dr:
Hey sportsluvr, for smoother stops, keep your head and eyes up, squeeze the clutch and focus on smooth application of the brakes. Once you've gotten those skills down and can easily repeat them without thinking, then decide if you want to add downshifting into the equation (SWIDT?). Learning the skills separately then adding (SWIDT #2) together will make it easier to learn and apply. A huge benefit of this is that it is exactly the same technique you will need in an emergency.
I'm a huge proponent of rear brake use, and I intentionally left that out in the previous comments. I use it mainly to compress the rear suspension and reduce the initial pitch rate of the chassis. The slightly shorter stopping distances are a side benefit for me.
RACE: Using the clutch avoids 'freewheeling'.
STREET: Using the rear brake avoids freewheeling.