Slow speed practice, no experts please

[CaptCrash]

Coolio. Sounds like a goldmine. In Idaho they did the same basic thing...oddly the licenses for ORVs bring in mondo cash. (Ah, sweet revenue generation--you have to buy the off road sticker AND the plate).

By the by, the bill only seems to define ORVs as having 3 or more wheels. Could you find the Michigan state definition of ORV? (I worry that it doesn't cover 2 wheeled vehicles).

Thanks!

 

[beginner]

So, with all your practice "slipping" the rear end and learning to control traction, you're afraid to ride when it's wet? :wtf

Wet pavement in the parking lot is a asset because it's easier to slip and grinds away less rubber. When it's cold the pavement stays wet longer, which is the only consolation when you want to ride a motorcycle. On a farm you don't rip up the ground or make ruts for play. Also the trails are for walking and mountain biking, not just the motorcycle. Most of the trails are on ground that's not farmed and the reason it's not farmed, most of the time is because it's low, or poorly drained.

Coolio. Sounds like a goldmine.

Even though it would make my motorcycle life easier I hope the Comissioners don't approve it in this county. I can see how it might work in some parts of the state.

By the by, the bill only seems to define ORVs as having 3 or more wheels. Could you find the Michigan state definition of ORV? (I worry that it doesn't cover 2 wheeled vehicles).

I've seen articles that seem authoritative that dirt bikes are included, again, my bet is it won't happen in this county.

 

[B-Cuz]

It's like arguing with the village idiot that has a degree in BS.


Bored again...later.

 

[Razel]

Because motorcycle experts are incapable of discussing their practice, ie. this thread. It's hard to discuss something you don't do.

This is a good example of you making things up to suit your agenda (whatever the real agenda is). "They" have discussed their practice, but not exactly in the format you insist on. They also do practice, and your statement above that they don't discuss something they don't do is blatantly false, and somewhat baiting (again).

I'm out of step with the majority of people who ride bikes, that's never going to change.

Ah. Greased pig analogy makes sense now, but I wasn't aware that the pig enjoyed the event.:rolleyes

I'm just hoping to find a few people who like to practice and like to compare notes on that.

Have you found any here? If not, maybe it's time to move on.

Everything I know about motorcycle experts I've learned in forums like this.

Then we have to agree that your knowledge of motorcycle experts is highly suspect, based on the source and that it's the only source.

I borrowed a copy of a book called Proficient Motorcycling and found what I expected. It's all about riding on highways and there is no chapter on slow speed practice.

No, there's no dedicated section for slow-speed practice. But, you missed a lot if that's all you came away with. Many of the scenarios depicted in the book are avoided by practice, some of which is slow-speed practicing. Implied, ya know. Reasons why you practice...I believe Hough gives the readers credit on connecting some of the dots themselves.

If people who aren't interested in slow speed practice stopped posting in this thread that would be good.

:rofl You haven't been on BARF very long, have you? :rofl

You have brought up police and the Asian gymkhana riders as examples of the kind of riding you aspire to. Maybe not those exact words, but you've communicated that to everyone here. Where have you found any folks in those riding disciplines that have eschewed any form of expert input to enhance their riding while learning to get better? That they don't have any non-riding observer present when they practice that gives feedback whereby they improve their techniques? I ask because it's obvious 99% of the folks here believe there is essential value with instructors/experts providing input real-time, and you could go a long ways clearing up this concept up by providing examples of where successful riders of those disciplines have not had feedback real-time from non-participating experts/instructors.

 

[Razel]

It's like arguing with the village idiot that has a PhD. (Piled higher and deeper) degree in BS.


Bored again...later.

Fixed!

 

[SuperMike]

:facepalm MICHIGAN

 

[beginner]

This is a good example of you making things up to suit your agenda (whatever the real agenda is).

My real agenda is discussing practice points with people who practice.

"They" have discussed their practice, but not exactly in the format you insist on. They also do practice, and your statement above that they don't discuss something they don't do is blatantly false, and somewhat baiting (again).

Referring to practice or claiming to practice is a bit short of discussing practice. If there is anyone posting or lurking who does a significant amount of slow speed practice I'm inviting them to discuss what they do.

No, there's no dedicated section for slow-speed practice.

There should be to encourage it.

But, you missed a lot if that's all you came away with. Many of the scenarios depicted in the book are avoided by practice, some of which is slow-speed practicing. Implied, ya know. Reasons why you practice...I believe Hough gives the readers credit on connecting some of the dots themselves.

Too bad Mr. Hough didn't include a chapter on PLP. It seems like his book is aimed at experienced riders, not beginners.

You have brought up police and the Asian gymkhana riders as examples of the kind of riding you aspire to. Maybe not those exact words, but you've communicated that to everyone here.

I don't aspire to their sports. I envy their skills, I respect practice. Motor police, gymkhana, and trials riders take slow speed practice as a given, that's why they interest me.

Where have you found any folks in those riding disciplines that have eschewed any form of expert input to enhance their riding while learning to get better?

If you know of a forum where motorcycle practice is discussed I'd appreciate a link.

That they don't have any non-riding observer present when they practice that gives feedback whereby they improve their techniques? I ask because it's obvious 99% of the folks here believe there is essential value with instructors/experts providing input real-time, and you could go a long ways clearing up this concept up by providing examples of where successful riders of those disciplines have not had feedback real-time from non-participating experts/instructors.

My bike is in a remote rural place. The several local riders I've noticed have no interest in what I'm doing in the parking lot. The choices are practice alone or not at all. For instruction to be useful it needs to be ongoing, spread over weeks and months.

There has been enough motor police training that there would be known practice norms, a typical number of hours, months, and years to reach various skill levels. It would be interesting to know what those are. That would be part of a practice road map that might encourage more people to do slow speed practice.

After a ride on the TW200 I'm shopping for an off road bike with a lower seat. I love what the tall bike can do but in the woods there's no substitute for being able to put your feet on the ground.

 

[gmcsid]

There has been enough motor police training that there would be known practice norms, a typical number of hours, months, and years to reach various skill levels. It would be interesting to know what those are. That would be part of a practice road map that might encourage more people to do slow speed practice.

Motorcops do an 80 hour course then they practice with their peers maybe once a month like my local cops and participate in competitions not to mention the daily riding they do which is always practice.

 

[CaptCrash]

Have you tried this yet?


youtu.be/<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oCUX3rHFjPE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oCUX3rHFjPE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

It beats the heck out of the 2x4 especially for you, because your 21 (?) inch front wheel will get over a 2x4 way, way too easily. My advice is surmounting at 10mph, 15mph, and 20mph. The parrallel surmounting is your choice of speed...

By the by, since formalized training is just 20 minutes away you might give it a shot, they practice surmounting and lots of slow speed stuff.

 

[Razel]

Referring to practice or claiming to practice is a bit short of discussing practice.

But, that's not what you initially stated. You claimed they were incapable, which they clearly are not. They can discuss their practice, and in some instances, they have. Why do you deny what's clearly there? "It's hard to discuss something you don't do." That, by itself, is true. But, when you connect that statement to the previous one, you're now claiming the experts don't practice. To be experts, they must practice, and you're found to be incorrect.

If there is anyone posting or lurking who does a significant amount of slow speed practice I'm inviting them to discuss what they do.

Have you found any here? If not, maybe it's time to move on.

I don't aspire to their sports.

I didn't say that, either.

I envy their skills, I respect practice. Motor police, gymkhana, and trials riders take slow speed practice as a given, that's why they interest me.

Practice and instruction. Why did you leave the second part out?

The several local riders I've noticed have no interest in what I'm doing in the parking lot.

I'm out of step with the majority of people who ride bikes, that's never going to change.

Do you see any correlation with those two statements?

There has been enough motor police training that there would be known practice norms, a typical number of hours, months, and years to reach various skill levels. It would be interesting to know what those are.

What police training facilities have you contacted to see if that information is available? We won't count that as an appeal to authority, either.

 

[beginner]

Motorcops do an 80 hour course then they practice with their peers maybe once a month like my local cops and participate in competitions not to mention the daily riding they do which is always practice.

If you talk to local motor cops ask them how many hours of slow speed practice they need to be just credible, let alone expert, in the rodeo style riding. When I watch those guys on video what I see are skills that took many slow speed practice hours to develop.

Have you tried this yet? (driving over obsticles)

I've watched that video and I'll be watching it again. I have not practiced that yet but it's on the list because it's usful in the woods.

It beats the heck out of the 2x4 especially for you, because your 21 (?) inch front wheel will get over a 2x4 way, way too easily. My advice is surmounting at 10mph, 15mph, and 20mph. The parrallel surmounting is your choice of speed...

The 2by4 exercise has a different purpose, to help beginners get some finess with brakes, clutch, throttle, and some balance skills. For doing that it's safe and effective.

You are the only rider I know of who trys to demonstrate a comprehensive collection of the basic exercises. Some of your skill demonstrations, like stoppies, are years away for me, if at all, others I can imagine equalling or surpassing with some more practice. So I make your examples a target--try to get to where I can do them better than Crash. Keep making your videos and feel free to go beyond the beginner techniques for various maneuvers. Consider a video where a motor cop instructs you in some new techniques you might not have yet--you be the student.

There's a lot of difference between doing basic maneuvers well enough to pass a test and doing them with great finess and skill.

By the by, since formalized training is just 20 minutes away you might give it a shot, they practice surmounting and lots of slow speed stuff.

The plan at the moment is to go observe one of the range sessions to check out the instructors.

 

[froride1]

Crash you have to be the most patient guy around to keep trying to help this troll. You have some good videos with good tips, if he would take the time to listen instead of talk he would learn something from them. I really like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK4prSEtKjs

 

[froride1]

These seem appropriate for this thread. Chuckles your getting famous on the web.:thumbup

 

[CaptCrash]

Keep making your videos and feel free to go beyond the beginner techniques for various maneuvers. Consider a video where a motor cop instructs you in some new techniques you might not have yet--you be the student.

youtu.be/<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xJ1SmTqyfc0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xJ1SmTqyfc0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[beginner]

Crash, I think I've seen most of your videos, including the one with the police. You say, "If you want to improve your skills you have to practice. You can't just expect to play the guitar because you own one." What you go on to describe as practice is working the bike in a safe open area similar to what the motor police are doing--PLP. We agree. What's left to consider is how much practice, as in hours, on what maneuvers, with what techniques. It's those last three things that would be interesting to discuss.

You got through the patterns. The difference between you and the police riders is they navigated a bit more confidently, smoother. (If there had been an elite competitor among them he would have ripped through the patterns like he was on the expressway.) You seemed to be riding with more rear brake than the police..

There are two possible reasons for the differences. They have some techniques you aren't aware of and/or they've done more repetitions. What I'm noticing in my own practice is a bit of both. Some techniques that have improved my small circles and snap turns were not intuitively obvious, they were discoveries. I haven't seen them suggested anywhere. I use them because, if I don't, I can't do the maneuvers reliably.

The police let you follow them through their patterns, all well and good. Do they help each other with specific techniques to navigate better or is it just 'look, look, look' and trial and error after that?

 

[CaptCrash]

The police let you follow them through their patterns, all well and good. Do they help each other with specific techniques to navigate better or is it just 'look, look, look' and trial and error after that?

Wouldn't it be great if there were some great cop cabal that was withholding information and denying us all greatness? Unfortunately there isn't.

ALL the motorcops I know(and that's mostly Idaho/Oregon) start their training the same way: MSF:BRC or TEAM OREGON BRT. That's their first step. They then go onto advanced "Motor Officer" training that pounds on the basics. I've not been to the CHP academy but I hear it's fabulous and they do loads of higher speed stuff. Several of the exercises they put me through the only coaching was "LOOK" and "Apex later" (coming in too tight on the inside pushes you wide at the exit of these things). I'm instructing a BRT with the Senior Idaho Motor Officer Trainer next month so I'll double check on what they work on mastering.

There's a great article here: http://www.motorcops.com/police_training/competitions.asp
that details why there are competitions--to encourage practice.

I know you want there to be some kind of secret that you're not getting but ANYTHING you want to know about Motor Officer training is here http://www.motorcops.com/index.asp either free or for a few bucks. Guys like Jerry Pallidino http://www.ridelikeapro.com/ are making a living sharing this sort of info--yes, it's not free but who has the ability to dedicate their life to training and do it for free?

Do you want the real secret? The one that you're gonna hate? SPEED STABLIZES MOTORCYCLES. That's why motor officers have that basic attack speed they use. Know how I just go nutz because you feel you're sliding the rear? A. It's because you're not. B. You need to understand that speed actually stabilizes the motorcycle, the slower you go, the more wobbly you are. Cops attack patterns because they know this. I've NEVER seen a motor officer wash out the back or the front. The only times I've seen them fall (and I have it on tape) is when they GO TOO SLOW. You Gymkhana friends are hauling butt too! Watch the videos! I'm bank their average speed is somewhere north of 20mph. THAT'S why they wash out and lose the front or rear occassionally--they're coming in hard on the brakes from 30+.

That's why your 'slipping' fallacy is so counterproductive to your training. You're not slipping, yet by believing you are, you limit your speed, which limits stability, which makes you uncomfortable, which you misinterpret as slipping which makes you limit your speed, which limits stability, which makes you uncomfortable, which you misinterpret as slipping which makes you limit your speed, which limits stability, which makes you uncomfortable, which you misinterpret as slipping which makes you limit your speed...Feels like all the threads you've been in don't it? Round and round you go.

One last thought since we're on the subject of Motor Officers. Often, Motor Officers are referred to as "Motormen" it's a title of distinction and pride, one that is earned by taking the oath, wearing the badge and doing the job. I WOULD NEVER CONSIDER, OR REFER TO MYSELF AS A MOTORMAN UNLESS I HAD BEEN ONE AND HAD THE SPINE TO DO THE JOB. If someone were to refer to me as a Motorman I would suggest that was a lovely compliment and then correct them, reminding them that only trained, sworn officers have the right to that title.

 

[beginner]

Wouldn't it be great if there were some great cop cabal that was withholding information and denying us all greatness?

I'm finding techniques that came late, that didn't come naturally, that aren't intuitively obvious, that help me maneuver the bike. If I was instructing people I'd try to learn how to explain them, which I'm sure the motor police instructors do.

ALL the motorcops I know(and that's mostly Idaho/Oregon) start their training the same way: MSF:BRC or TEAM OREGON BRT. That's their first step. They then go onto advanced "Motor Officer" training that pounds on the basics. I've not been to the CHP academy but I hear it's fabulous and they do loads of higher speed stuff. Several of the exercises they put me through the only coaching was "LOOK" and "Apex later" (coming in too tight on the inside pushes you wide at the exit of these things). I'm instructing a BRT with the Senior Idaho Motor Officer Trainer next month so I'll double check on what they work on mastering.

It will be interesting to hear what you learn at that event.

There's a great article here: http://www.motorcops.com/police_training/competitions.asp

I found this article last year. It says, "Police motorcycle competitions are an excellent venue to observe and evaluate successful riding techniques..." I'm sure that refers to a few more things besides "LOOK" and "Apex later". I've been able to figure out a few techniques watching videos of the competitions. For instance I found a video of a motor policeman warming up for a competition doing tight circles and figure 8s. It happened that the camera position was very close so it was easy to hear subtle use of the throttle, which was quite different from what I'd been doing on the same maneuvers. The value of that little hint got put to use immediately and raised my figure 8s and tight circles to another level.

I know you want there to be some kind of secret that you're not getting but ANYTHING you want to know about Motor Officer training is here http://www.motorcops.com/index.asp either free or for a few bucks. Guys like Jerry Pallidino http://www.ridelikeapro.com/ are making a living sharing this sort of info--yes, it's not free but who has the ability to dedicate their life to training and do it for free?

The first money I spent for motorcycle advice put me on a bike that is not suitable for a beginner. The book title that would have credibility to me is something like 'learn to ride in 5,000 easy lessons'. Riding a bike really well is a long road. My guesstimate is the better rodeo competitors have been practicing diligently for 10 years, not weeks or months. That's the secret.

Do you want the real secret? The one that you're gonna hate? SPEED STABLIZES MOTORCYCLES. That's why motor officers have that basic attack speed they use.

In my riding environment there is never a reason to go faster than 30 mph and that's only to get to the places I want to ride where the terrain dictates speeds under 15 mph. I ride in places where slow is mandatory, not optional. The masters of slow are trials riders.

Know how I just go nutz because you feel you're sliding the rear?

I have noticed that. I made the claim. It's my job to come up with convincing evidence which I haven't been able to do with youtube quality video and my current skill level.

Often, Motor Officers are referred to as "Motormen" it's a title of distinction and pride, one that is earned by taking the oath, wearing the badge and doing the job. I WOULD NEVER CONSIDER, OR REFER TO MYSELF AS A MOTORMAN UNLESS I HAD BEEN ONE AND HAD THE SPINE TO DO THE JOB. If someone were to refer to me as a Motorman I would suggest that was a lovely compliment and then correct them, reminding them that only trained, sworn officers have the right to that title.

When I created my youtube account for motorcycle videos I knew almost nothing about the origin of the term motorman. I might have picked something different if I'd known but it's too late, usernames can't be changed. If it was up to me I'd make it against the law for police departments to purchase motorcycles for less than a normal retail price, no factory discounts. I believe that would encourage them to contribute more to the motorcycle safety discussion.

 

[CaptCrash]

The first money I spent for motorcycle advice put me on a bike that is not suitable for a beginner.

Yup, it's the bike's fault. NO, wait, it's the DEALER'S fault yeah, that's the ticket...Actually, the truly sad part of this is that IF you had traveled 17 miles and taken a course, you could have RIDDEN a TW200 or GZ250 OR DR150 and actually gotten an idea of how it performed and felt. You took what is a very traditional approach, you bought a bike and tried to learn to ride. Spending that 250 bucks BEFORE you buy might be a good investment huh? (muttering) that way you wouldn't be stuck with a stupid bike that can't do what you want it to do...

The book title that would have credibility to me is something like 'learn to ride in 5,000 easy lessons'.

Shouldn't look for credibility in a title. That's like asking a dealer to tell you which bike to buy.

My guesstimate is the better rodeo competitors have been practicing diligently for 10 years, not weeks or months. That's the secret.

LEO Forum. Just ask. They'll answer. Here's a thread title: "How much do you guys practice?"

If it was up to me I'd make it against the law for police departments to purchase motorcycles for less than a normal retail price, no factory discounts. I believe that would encourage them to contribute more to the motorcycle safety discussion.

I'm just going with this is kinda nutty...I guess I don't see how this would work...or do anything but raise my taxes...

A BETTER SLOW SPEED PRACTICE IDEA (see, we're talking about Slow Speed Practice agian!)--a BETTER idea would be allow officers to use 2 of their required 40 hours per week for practice!

LEOs--I know lots of you put in lots more hours than 40 a week and aren't compensated well for it! Thanks for keeping us all safe!

 

[beginner]

Yup, it's the bike's fault. NO, wait, it's the DEALER'S fault yeah, that's the ticket...Actually, the truly sad part of this is that IF you had traveled 17 miles and taken a course, you could have RIDDEN a TW200 or GZ250 OR DR150 and actually gotten an idea of how it performed and felt. You took what is a very traditional approach, you bought a bike and tried to learn to ride. Spending that 250 bucks BEFORE you buy might be a good investment huh? (muttering) that way you wouldn't be stuck with a stupid bike that can't do what you want it to do...

I was not aware of training options until the bike was bought. The flaw in the KLX300 for a rank beginner like me is the tall seat. There are bikes people shouldn't ride until they've paid some dues, learned some skills. The penalty for riding that bike is riding in the woods is quite restricted.

That's like asking a dealer to tell you which bike to buy.

The dealer knew I was a brand newbie, he knew I planned to ride narrow trails in the woods. I even point to a smaller bike in the show room and was steered away from it. Everytime I go back to that shop the salesman gives me a sheepish look. Now I know why.

allow officers to use 2 of their required 40 hours per week for practice!

I gather that motor officers typically warm up in a parking lot at the beginning of a shift and might duck into a parking lot at random if calls slow down during the day. I'm sure the most dedicated do some practice on their own time because they like to practice, which I can relate to because I like to practice.

LEOs--I know lots of you put in lots more hours than 40 a week and aren't compensated well for it! Thanks for keeping us all safe!

Everybody has to be greatful for people who put themselves in harms way on purpose for the sake of the public safety. In the mean time the motive for manufacturer discounts to police departments is marketing. As a tax payer and citizen I'd prefer that police keep an arms length relationship with all their suppliers, especially for motorcycles, for the sake of public safety.

I got another session on the TW200, including some time in the parking lot. The front wheel wants to turn in the direction of the turn more agressively than the KLX. Chain slack interfered with adjusting power in figure 8s and circles. May be the solution is to increase the idle speed on the motor so the bike is at, or a tiny bit above, the right speed for most PLP in 2nd gear. Pushing a button to start the motor is interesting but I've gotten used to the kick start. The fat tires have a strange feel, leaning is a different experience. I think I like narrower twitchier tires better.

 

[CaptCrash]

First, it's good you've found a friend to ride with! Hopefully TW200 can give you feedback and help with your riding.

The dealer knew I was a brand newbie, he knew I planned to ride narrow trails in the woods. I even point to a smaller bike in the show room and was steered away from it.

Hmmmm...MSF instructors would probably have 'fit' you to the bike better. Bottomline is: Caveat emptor. I think you're feeling burned by someone who you felt should have treated you better. Honestly? If you've got the legs for it the KLX is a great starter bike. If you can't flatfoot it at a stop--that's your problem not the dealer. Should have done some research. If you're embarrassed and angry you bought the wrong bike--that's OK! Everybody screws up once in a while.

I
May be the solution is to increase the idle speed on the motor so the bike is at, or a tiny bit above, the right speed for most PLP in 2nd gear.

:wow:wow:wow

My inclination here is to verbally tear your head off and metaphorically crap down the hole. This is just a BAD IDEA. The control that needs adjusting is your right hand and it's connection to your brain. Chain slack I'll give you--the bike will lunge and jerk...but running your idle up because you can't operate the throttle is a VERY bad idea.

Also, if you're looking to do it perfect and to be perfect every time--well, you're in the wrong business.