Since when did LEO's start using ketamine on people they arrest?

[Climber]

Two strangers, with the same first name, and a terrifying story about ketamine in policing

This is a disturbing but hopefully isolated, to a region, change.

Elijah McKnight admits he was drunk. The 25-year-old says he'd had a fifth of Jim Beam with a buddy before passing out on his way home on a sidewalk just outside Aurora, Colorado. That is where sheriff's deputies found him.

They nudged him awake and the conversation was calm for the first several minutes. Deputies told him they were just checking to see if he was all right. But the encounter ended with McKnight on life support after being injected with a high dose of a drug called ketamine.
"I was out cold for three days on life support," he said. "My family didn't know where I was."
When McKnight finally woke up in an Aurora hospital, he couldn't believe what he was seeing on the news. His eyes widened when he saw a story about another young Black man named Elijah. Elijah McClain was in a coma and near death after a police encounter that also involved a ketamine injection -- the same drug McKnight had been given before everything went dark. The two incidents happened just 10 miles apart and within days of each other, but involved different law enforcement and EMT agencies.

Anesthesiologists train for years to use this stuff. Police officers do not have the training to use it. Period.

Thoughts?

 

[afm199]

Not enough info. Did the LEO inject ( I doubt) or an EMT?

Story says EMT. Might be a court case there. The guy was also said to be angry and fighting. What do you do?

 

[Caddywumpus]

Usually you gotta pay for that

 

[cheez]

Doesn't seem very isolated.

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/25/ketamine-police-use-minnesota/

A FORMER PARAMEDIC with the Emergency Medical Services in Woodbury, a suburb of St. Paul, Minnesota, has filed a whistleblower lawsuit claiming that police pressured him to administer ketamine, a fast-acting sedative, during an arrest. He claims that the incident is part of a larger trend among the region’s law enforcement. The paramedic, 32-year-old Joseph Baker, said that he hopes to take a stand against police using ketamine “to gain compliance.”

“It’s not an appropriate use of our jobs as paramedics,” he told The Intercept, in his first interview since the lawsuit was filed on August 17, in the District Court of Minnesota. In Woodbury, the police, EMS, and firefighters all collaborate as part of the city’s Public Safety Department.

https://coloradosun.com/2020/07/23/ketamine-use-paramedics-elijah-mclain/

More than 100 agencies across Colorado have approval from the state to allow medics to use ketamine, an anesthetic, on people who show signs of what’s often dubbed “excited delirium,” a practice that is now drawing national criticism from anesthesiologists and psychiatrists.

Yet emergency doctors across the country, including 25 in Colorado, are defending the use of ketamine in cases where severely agitated people struggle against police, even when they are physically restrained.

A KUNC investigation finds that Colorado paramedics and emergency medical technicians have used ketamine 902 times in cases like these in the last two and a half years. That includes 180 times in the first half of this year.

https://www.postandcourier.com/news...cle_8b07f4de-59ae-11ea-adad-2f0e6f56d779.html

The State Law Enforcement Division is investigating the 2019 death of a man who was in the custody of Mount Pleasant, South Carolina police.

Tommy Crosby, a SLED spokesman, said police reached out to the state agency and requested an investigation into the Oct. 16 death of James C. Britt, 50.

“The investigation does include, but is not limited to, the Mount Pleasant PD,” Crosby said. “Specifics of the investigation are not available as this is an open and active case.”

Britt died about 2½ weeks after he was arrested by officers who were called to a report of a man urinating in a roadway, according to an incident report and an autopsy report provided to The Post and Courier.

 

[Climber]

Not enough info. Did the LEO inject ( I doubt) or an EMT?

Story says EMT. Might be a court case there. The guy was also said to be angry and fighting. What do you do?

Is an EMT qualified to be using that stuff?

Yeah, I understand about a combative asshole who isn't complying, but how far can you take it to get them into jail?

Apparently in his case, they went well above the recommended dose for his weight.

Yeah, I know, a catch 22, if you restrain them and they die as a result for the restraining, a bigger problem. No easy solutions here.

 

[Johndicezx9]

Bill Cosby training these cops?


J/k


Sorta...

 

[bojangle]

Two strangers, with the same first name, and a terrifying story about ketamine in policing

This is a disturbing but hopefully isolated, to a region, change.

Anesthesiologists train for years to use this stuff. Police officers do not have the training to use it. Period.

Thoughts?

Sure. Police didn't administer this. It says so right in the article you linked. It was from a paramedic. A paramedic is responsible for whatever care they give and whatever they inject into anyone. This could be an issue with paramedics, but not police. Police aren't injecting people.

 

[Climber]

Sure. Police didn't administer this. It says so right in the article you linked. It was from a paramedic. A paramedic is responsible for whatever care they give and whatever they inject into anyone. This could be an issue with paramedics, but not police. Police aren't injecting people.

However, it was done at the request of the police, not for the benefit of the prisoner nor with their consent.

I understand he was being a total drunk ass, but this seems to be a step beyond where I thought they could go. I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to request a blood test without the person's consent, I guess that is delving into the realm of getting additional evidence, but this action puts them at risk, though it's probably an issue for physician input to determine if it's a safer or more convenient decision.

Yeah, I understand, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Yakoo752]

Sure. Police didn't administer this. It says so right in the article you linked. It was from a paramedic. A paramedic is responsible for whatever care they give and whatever they inject into anyone. This could be an issue with paramedics, but not police. Police aren't injecting people.

When Baker responded to a call on September 22, 2019, according to the lawsuit,Sgt. Tom Ehrenberg and other police officers pressured Baker to administer ketamine. Baker said in an interview that the man being detained clearly had a mental illness but that he also did not resist any directives to a degree that seemed to require sedation. “He was on his feet and complied with all the officer’s orders … and even had a conversation with me about the Vikings,” Baker recalled. He refused to sedate him, and the man was eventually released.

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/25/ketamine-police-use-minnesota/

http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@civilrights/documents/webcontent/wcmsp-212775.pdf

 

[Yakoo752]

If the patient is profoundly agitated with active physical violence to himself/herself or others evident, and usual chemical or physical restraints (section C) may not be appropriate or safely used, consider Ketamine 5 mg/kg IM (If IV already established, may give 2 mg/kg IV/IO).

that's actually feels like a lot.

a recreational dose is about 75 to 125 mg IntraMuscular for example (total)

5mg per kilo someone weighing 220 would be 100kg, that's a 500mg dose.

and right on the cusp of the low side of a clinical dosage

-Induction: 6.5 to 13 mg/kg IM; (9 to 13 mg/kg IM provides 12 to 25 minutes of surgical anesthesia)
-Maintenance: The maintenance dose should be adjusted according to the patient's anesthetic needs and whether an additional anesthetic is employed. Increments of one-half to the full induction dose may be repeated as needed for maintenance of anesthesia.

 

[wannabe]

Sure. Police didn't administer this. It says so right in the article you linked. It was from a paramedic. A paramedic is responsible for whatever care they give and whatever they inject into anyone. This could be an issue with paramedics, but not police. Police aren't injecting people.

In this case, I totally agree with you. It’s on the medic. Regardless of what the police tell him to do, it’s the medic’s responsibility to treat the patient per the department protocols.

 

[Yakoo752]

I understand he was being a total drunk ass, but this seems to be a step beyond where I thought they could go. I'm pretty sure they aren't allowed to request a blood test without the person's consent, I guess that is delving into the realm of getting additional evidence, but this action puts them at risk, though it's probably an issue for physician input to determine if it's a safer or more convenient decision.

brilliant idea. let's give someone on a depressant (alcohol) a sedative :facepalm

recipe for disaster

fwiw, paramedics are the one's fucking up here but not sure how they view the "order" from the officer or the officers level of engagement in the decision making process.

 

[Climber]

that's actually feels like a lot.

a recreational dose is about 75 to 125 mg IntraMuscular for example (total)

5mg per kilo someone weighing 220 would be 100kg, that's a 500mg dose.

and right on the cusp of the low side of a clinical dosage

-Induction: 6.5 to 13 mg/kg IM; (9 to 13 mg/kg IM provides 12 to 25 minutes of surgical anesthesia)
-Maintenance: The maintenance dose should be adjusted according to the patient's anesthetic needs and whether an additional anesthetic is employed. Increments of one-half to the full induction dose may be repeated as needed for maintenance of anesthesia.

With a clinical dose, wouldn't that be in a controlled environment where you know what has already been put into their body?

 

[Bubba_s]

OT: I've seen two of my kids on ketamine due to injuries and the results were hilarious.
first kid was smiling like a lunatic and trying to get up like a mummy the other was high as a kite and telling us all he loved us.

Back on topic. I would think using the stuff in a hospital setting would be best and that cops should not be pushing EMTs to do something that could get them in trouble if something goes wrong. The EMT should have sole authority IMO.

 

[Yakoo752]

With a clinical dose, wouldn't that be in a controlled environment where you know what has already been put into their body?

"Collapsed" airway isn't uncommon with k at these doses. So in a clinical setting, you're prepared to tube.

Also heartrates tend to spike significantly after first dose

overall k is "really" safe both recreationally and clinically but shit happens

rise in usage in "policing" in 1 town.

 

[afm199]

Apropos to nothing, one of my now dead friends was pretty fucking weird and scary on Ketamine.

 

[wannabe]

Back on topic. I would think using the stuff in a hospital setting would be best and that cops should not be pushing EMTs to do something that could get them in trouble if something goes wrong. The EMT should have sole authority IMO.

At the risk of being pedantic, the only drug that an EMT is allowed to give is Oxygen. Paramedics are the ones pushing drugs. And, yes, it’s the medic’s call whether or not to push the drugs.

 

[asdfghwy]

of course its the aurora police department. also I've heard from ketamine is fun but very hard to get

 

[Bubba_s]

At the risk of being pedantic, the only drug that an EMT is allowed to give is Oxygen. Paramedics are the ones pushing drugs. And, yes, it’s the medic’s call whether or not to push the drugs.

My bad. I guess I meant paramedic. And I agree that it's their call, I just wonder about how a cop whose just been wrastlin with detainee and is now pushing them to shoot the person up would change things. I assume there would be some training for that, right?

 

[cheez]

of course its the aurora police department. also I've heard from ketamine is fun but very hard to get

When I lived in Dallas we'd road trip to Mexico to buy it and bring it home in soda bottles. Looks just like Sprite.