Rossi the GOAT via the numbers?

[mjrydsfast]

Here's an interesting chart from SuperbikePlanet.com I'm not sure if I really agree with it at this point but the parameters themselves were tough for me to digest. My gut says Michael Doohan was as good as anyone that's ever ridden. :nchantr

 

[sckego]

That chart's methodology is stupid. A world championship counts the same as a race win? And ignores the fact that there are 50% more races in a season now than 60 years ago? I mean, Pedrosa should be in the top 10 with their methodology, discounted only because he's never won a premier class championship. If premier class championships are that important, shouldn't they count for more than *1* point?

 

[clutchslip]

Ut, oh. Are some Rossi fans getting nervous? :laughing There will be justification ten years from now for him, is my bet.

Why should you get more points because you win in 125cc? That's b.s., too. Why aren't AMA and BSB and WSBK championships counted? They are harder than the opening support class, in my opinion.

How about starting from the back and winning? Shouldn't that get 4 points? Doesn't Doohan have FIVE big class ships? I mean come on. He was someone to watch on worn-out rubber. It's a stupid chart to produce an biased opinion. :thumbdown

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

no matter what metric, Rossi is one of if not the best of all time. deal with it.

 

[sckego]

Why should you get more points because you win in 125cc? That's b.s., too. Why aren't AMA and BSB and WSBK championships counted? They are harder than the opening support class, in my opinion.

I've read (before my time, so I don't know) that the smaller GP classes were regarded in similar importance to the premier class. Guys would race both 500s and 250s at the same Grand Prix, and try to win both championships in the same year. Ago, for example, won dual championships every year from 1968-72. So they should be counted to be fair to the old-school crew, though maybe not fully as important as the premier class.

In my mind, a championship is a championship, doesn't matter if you won by a single point or wiped the floor with the field all season long. Titles are of utmost importance. Then, add in winning percentage or races won (normalized for number of races in a season) in non-championship years - that is, if you didn't win the title, were you consistently competitive, or absent? - but races won should not count as much as titles won. Definitely should not count as several times the importance, as in the above chart.

 

[scootergmc]

This again? Sigh.

 

[afm199]

If Stoner had not been drinking milk, and hated fishing, he'd be on that list.









:laughing

 

[Biga]

Common now... the guy is twice as old as anyone else in MotoGP and he is 3rd on the championship which is a lot better than all the other riders that we expected to be doing good and they are not... why is this thing about "man is time for him to retire..."?
Is it to give the other losers a fair chance?

 

[budman]

Pretty solid list. This is mine.. not points.. all guts!

Rossi
Ago
Hailwood
MM
Doohan
Lorenzo
Surtees
Lawson
Duke
Rainey
Roberts
Spencer
Stoner

 

[stangmx13]

I could make things up too, to justify anything I want with motorcycle racing.

oh wait, I regularly do

 

[Bowling4Bikes]

Duke

I was not familiar with him so I looked it up. rad, thanks for mentioning him!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoff_Duke

 

[budman]

He was a bad ass before my time as was Surtees.
Ago and Hailwood I read about.

Surtees still may be the ultimate bad ass but in my book there is one goat as of today. His number is 46.

 

[scootergmc]

I hate seeing Agostini on these lists. Dude should have a perpetual asterisk by his name. He literally rode a bike heads and tails above his competitors. Not to take too much away from him, but I think he was the only factory ride for a few years too.

 

[ejv]

I can't see how MM doesn't end his career as GOAT barring major injury issues. I didn't start watching GP racing until VR was in the top class and I understand he was talented from the beginning in 125s but I have watched the 125/Moto 3 class since the early 2000s and just never seen anything like MM from the beginning of the career. Had I seen VR his first year in the world championship maybe he would have struck me the same way?

I have felt since his first year in Moto2 that I was witnessing the one day GOAT when I watched MM. it strikes me as odd that at this point everyone hasn't realized this already. I guess I am just seeing things differently. I don't much care for his tactics and they are especially upsetting when he takes risks that are totally unnecessary given his superior speed in most situations. But MM knows how to ride a motorcycle consistently faster than anyone I've ever seen. And as best I can tell he has done so with superior opposing talent around him in an era where the bikes on the grid were relatively evenly matched. Not a popular opinion I know but I call it how I see it.

 

[DonJigweed]

Marquez is no doubt something different and very special. And certainly the only alien on the grid now, towering above everyone else. But he's only five years in. He probably needs to make it another 5-10 years with a similar degree of success before most would call him the GOAT. Longevity is a significant factor in the equation. And direct comparisons are always difficult. Comparing riders from different eras is apples and oranges to some extent. Not to mention, you're seeing Marquez compete against a 40 year old Rossi. That he's on the grid at 40 is insane. That's he's able to fight for wins when he has the bike under him is incomprehensible. Marquez has a long ways to go to claim GOAT.

 

[afm199]

He was a bad ass before my time as was Surtees.
Ago and Hailwood I read about.

Surtees still may be the ultimate bad ass but in my book there is one goat as of today. His number is 46.

I was lucky enough to see Surtees race bikes and cars. Amazing time.

I agree, #46 is the GOAT and will be for some time. It's quite possible MM may surpass him, but not yet.

 

[chrisweir.com]

This

Marquez is no doubt something different and very special. And certainly the only alien on the grid now, towering above everyone else. But he's only five years in. He probably needs to make it another 5-10 years with a similar degree of success before most would call him the GOAT. Longevity is a significant factor in the equation. And direct comparisons are always difficult. Comparing riders from different eras is apples and oranges to some extent. Not to mention, you're seeing Marquez compete against a 40 year old Rossi. That he's on the grid at 40 is insane. That's he's able to fight for wins when he has the bike under him is incomprehensible. Marquez has a long ways to go to claim GOAT.

And I would add MM is CLEARLY the GORN

 

[budman]

And we all know..... here today, gorn tomorrow.

 

[bikewanker]

Steady Eddie

Pretty solid list. This is mine.. not points.. all guts!

Rossi
Ago
Hailwood
MM
Doohan
Lorenzo
Surtees
Lawson
Duke
Rainey
Roberts
Spencer
Stoner

Good list other than a lack of nationalism in the top 7!:rolleyes
I have Lawson over Doohan, the back to back on different brands impressed me almost as much as watching his Kawasaki superbike weave at 160+ through the Kettle Downs of Road America. Rainey Roberts Spencer is tough as Roberts was Making America Great on the most popular world stage and I was following thanks to Cycle News. While this appears to be an OG forum I've only read about racers that afm199 has seen, and it affects my thinking.
I'm sentimental

 

[budman]

FYI.

Lawson is my fav. Awesome racer. The guy I patterned my racing after. SMMMOOOOOTHH!

As far as skill. He belongs right at the top IMO but as far as success a bit lower.