Question regarding Notarizing a Document

[mlm]

Needed an IRA rollover notarized a few days ago. As we're going through the process the notary explains that CA no longer stamps the actual document, but instead attached a “Jurat” sheet bearing the notary signature.

Later I prepared to submit the form and notice that nothing on the Jurat form ties it to the signed document. I went back to the notary a few hours later and explained this, pointing to the descriptive section on the Jurat that was left blank. She explained that those were “optional” fields that were not her responsibility and that I could fill them in if I liked. Then, as if to make me happy she stamped the words “See attached Jurat” on the final page of the document.

So I submitted…and it was rejected. The brokerage explained that the Jurat was missing information that was explicitly called out in the “Instructions of Notary” section of the document.

Just got back from the notary, who reaffirms it’s not her job, but agrees to fill in the missing information. I just resubmitted and hopefully will be done with it, but a few things seem fishy:

1) Not bothering to follow the “instructions top notary” section of the document, nor in any way binding the Jurat to the signed document (e.g. like stapling it together)

2) Telling me I could update the Jurat myself. Then later doing so a few days later…on a form that I’ve already submitted

 

[CocoLoco]

Which part of the jurat wasn't filled out?
https://notary.cdn.sos.ca.gov/forms/notary-jurat.pdf

It's important that the purpose of the notary be understood. The notary only ensures the person signing a document or affirming a statement is the person they represent themselves to be based on Cal DL ID. That's it. The notary is not in any way responsible for the accuracy of any documents attached to the jurat.

 

[TerryM]

Just had a passport renewal notarized last week. That notary (UPS store) stamped the form and attached a CA wording page. Per wifey, keeping up with and understanding changing notary rules is a job not worth the pay.

 

[mlm]

Which part of the jurat wasn't filled out?
https://notary.cdn.sos.ca.gov/forms/notary-jurat.pdf

It's important that the purpose of the notary be understood. The notary only ensures the person signing a document or affirming a statement is the person they represent themselves to be based on Cal DL ID. That's it. The notary is not in any way responsible for the accuracy of any documents attached to the jurat.

I understand, and the issue is not the accuracy of the document. The problem is the Jurat was never "attached" to the document. I've heard from a co-worker that in their experience this was accomplished by stapling the Jurat to the document. This wasn't done, and the descriptive fields to accomplish this on the Jurat were not followed as called out in the "Instructions for Notary". They just said to "include the title and account number" in the Jurat notes

As per the form, it was similar, but supposedly a new form. Same info with "Optional" section with specific fields for the type of information they didn't bother to add.

 

[CocoLoco]

What I attached is the official jurat of the State of CA. Any additional info is ancillary to the notary's job. I don't know what "optional" info is.
I get affirmations notarized all the time. The jurat is rarely stapled to the affidavit doc. I've often thought that is weird and makes zero sense.

 

[mercurial]

The point of notarization is to make it undeniable that a specific document was signed by specific parties, at a specific time. If the notary doesn't at least give you a stamped form that includes a basic description of the document notarized and the parties present, that is one slacker ass notary. I think the notary is even required to put a description, in their own book of records.

I mean, what happens if a party contests the validity of the notarization? Are you going to depose the notary? And what happens if the notary says "I don't recall." Talk about a hassle, when all the notary had to do was put a simple description on it.

 

[mlm]

The point of notarization is to make it undeniable that a specific document was signed by specific parties, at a specific time. If the notary doesn't at least give you a stamped form that includes a basic description of the document notarized and the parties present, that is one slacker ass notary. I think the notary is even required to put a description, in their own book of records.

I mean, what happens if a party contests the validity of the notarization? Are you going to depose the notary? And what happens if the notary says "I don't recall." Talk about a hassle, when all the notary had to do was put a simple description on it.

Exactly. The fact she told me I could just write it out myself afterwards makes me think she jumped from lazy/incompetent to being reported

 

[fast4d]

the amount UPS store charge for notary vs AAA :wow:afm199

 

[afm199]

the amount UPS store charge for notary vs AAA :wow:afm199

Give us a hint. Which is less?

 

[cencalballer]

What you needed was a NSA(national signing agent). They do notarizations and the rest of the stuff when it comes to financial documents/home loans/etc.

 

[mlm]

What you needed was a NSA(national signing agent). They do notarizations and the rest of the stuff when it comes to financial documents/home loans/etc.

What I needed was a simple notarization from someone competent. What I got was the bare minimum of what was required, and possibly less. Literally the first response on both return visits was ..."not our job". :loser

For curiosity I posted this to the Sec State Notary help desk and will post back with what I hear.

I will try to be brief, but would be happy to answer any further questions. Recently had my wife and I’s signatures notarized for a 4 page document. We left the notary with the signed document and a separate (unattached) Jurat page. A few hours later I returned after noticing the Jurat page had no information tieing it to the document we signed. I was told it was not required and I could add comments to the Jurat page myself as it was not the notary’s job. 3 days later after my document was rejected (because no attachment) the notary again stated it was not her responsibility, but agreed to add some simple identifying information (as called out in the “Instructions for Notary” text next to where we signed).
Are there requirements for attaching a Jurat to the signed document? Is is allowable to add information to the Jurat after it has been stamped?

 

[Abacinator]

the amount UPS store charge for notary vs AAA :wow:afm199

lolwut? Notary is $15 everywhere :laughing

Edit: per signature

 

[CocoLoco]

What I needed was a simple notarization from someone competent. What I got was the bare minimum of what was required, and possibly less. Literally the first response on both return visits was ..."not our job". :loser

For curiosity I posted this to the Sec State Notary help desk and will post back with what I hear.

The only thing the notary is responsible for completing is the jurat I attached in the prior post and their logbook. That's it. They are not responsible for anything else. If the party that rejected your notarized statement did so because they didn't like the way it works there's not much you can do about it. The notary isn't responsible for anything else. Weird but true.

P.S. Yes, the logbook must have a short description of the document involved.

lolwut? Notary is $15 everywhere :laughing

Edit: per signature

$15 per sig + any additional "fees" the notary tacks on such as travel expenses etc.

The most that can be charged per signature is $15 but a notary could charge another $100 in "fees." The logbook must show how much was charged per signature (the notary could charge less for a sig, but who would do that?) and any receipt provided must show at least the cost of signing broken out separate from any other fees involved.

 

[bpw]

Which part of the jurat wasn't filled out?
https://notary.cdn.sos.ca.gov/forms/notary-jurat.pdf

It's important that the purpose of the notary be understood. The notary only ensures the person signing a document or affirming a statement is the person they represent themselves to be based on Cal DL ID. That's it. The notary is not in any way responsible for the accuracy of any documents attached to the jurat.

What keeps someone from stapling that form to any document they want?

 

[Eldritch]

lolwut? Notary is $15 everywhere :laughing

Edit: per signature

Yes, this is regulated by law. I just retired my seal last August, because I never use it. The notary used in the above was just lazy.

 

[CocoLoco]

What keeps someone from stapling that form to any document they want?

I agree. Seems weird. If things go bad and a law suit starts the doc, signer, and notary’s journal are supposed to be enough to prove what happened to what. The point is that the act of notarizing is to prove the person who signed is the person they claim to be. Most court cases involving notarized docs involve the signer claiming they didn’t sign.

The jurat is just proof that the act of notarization occurred. Why someone would want to attach it to a doc they didn’t sign really makes no sense.

 

[fast4d]

UPS store charged us $45 or 50

I later found AAA charge 3 or 5 depending on member level

 

[mercurial]

I agree. Seems weird. If things go bad and a law suit starts the doc, signer, and notary’s journal are supposed to be enough to prove what happened to what. The point is that the act of notarizing is to prove the person who signed is the person they claim to be. Most court cases involving notarized docs involve the signer claiming they didn’t sign.

The jurat is just proof that the act of notarization occurred. Why someone would want to attach it to a doc they didn’t sign really makes no sense.

Yea the risk is generally overly blown, other facts and circumstance would prove the nature of the document signed, and the notarization itself proved that both parties were there and signed something; together, it's enough to prove the document's validity.

But not putting a simple description of the doc on the jurat (weird name, learned something new here) does add a tiny degree of wiggle room for someone to deny the validity of the signed doc. The whole point of notarization is to completely remove this possibility, so it's kind of ridiculous that a notary wouldn't take an extra 5 seconds to write a description.

 

[Cycle61]

UPS store charged us $45 or 50

I later found AAA charge 3 or 5 depending on member level

Weird. Had some paperwork for the state notarized at our local UPS store this morning, cost me $10 and they stamped right on the document as expected.

 

[tgrrdr]

UPS store charged us $45 or 50

I later found AAA charge 3 or 5 depending on member level

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure the UPS store near me charged $20. Someone in this thread stated the fee was per signature so if there were three sigs on your doc that would be $45.