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You got me there. I followed your links and found summary data. Is there any place to read the individual accident reports?Because only fatal crashes are reported in enough detail to do this kind of analysis.
You got me there. I followed your links and found summary data. Is there any place to read the individual accident reports?Because only fatal crashes are reported in enough detail to do this kind of analysis.
Say both riders loose traction in the same turn at the same speed for the same reason.
No two turns are exactly alike so there are an infinite number of turns but there aren't an infinite number of mistakes or skill and experience would be irrelevent.One thing I've learned in my puny experience is that it's never the same turn twice.
No two turns are exactly alike so there are an infinite number of turns but there aren't an infinite number of mistakes or skill and experience would be irrelevent.
Luck often determines injury severity. We're in complete agreement on that.With motorcycles there can be two identical crashes where one person walks away and the other person dies of injuries. Say both riders loose traction in the same turn at the same speed for the same reason. One rider slides into the grass, picks up the bike, and rides home. The other rider makes the identical mistake 10' earlier and instead of stopping on the grass hits a tree. There's no mystery why the second rider died, he hit a tree. What I'd like to know is what led up to the loss of traction.
Again, we agree. I just have to persuade you of that.As far as modern bikes being safer than old ones, the reverse is true. Which bike is going to kill more people, the 600cc super bike with the best of everying or a bike that's underpowered with marginal tires, poor suspension, and crappy brakes? The modern bike is going to be the killing machine for two reasons, because speed increases risk, and because there's a lot of temptation to operate the modern bike beyond the skills and experience of the rider.
Not that I know of. However, among the fatal crash data in the FARS database is the sequence of events and one or more rider factors that contributed. For example, here's the sequence in a 2008 crash where a Gixxer 1000 rider at 90mph was killed when he ran wide in a turn:I followed your links and found summary data. Is there any place to read the individual accident reports?
And indeed, that kind of detail is seldom available. The exception is where there are witness accounts that appear in the media or a forum.My take is that Dan's info is not to report on actual rider error or lapse in judgment at the point of crash. Instead it looks like trends that act to "set up" a particular type of recurring accident, irrespective of which turn or intersection or onramp.
Luck often determines injury severity. We're in complete agreement on that.
What you're saying is that it isn't grip or steering response or lean angle limit or brake controllability of the modern sportbike that makes it deadly, it's rider perception of the risk and his adjustment to it. I call that the paradox of risk perception: the more dangerous you think something will be, the less dangerous it will actually be. And conversely, the less dangerous you think something will be (because of the highly capable machine, for example), the more dangerous it will actually be. For more on that see the 1Rider thread Risky Business. One of the themes in this forum is sorting out the contribution to risk of rider decisions vs. fixed elements like the machine and environment.
...among the fatal crash data in the FARS database is the sequence of events and one or more rider factors that contributed. For example, here's the sequence in a 2008 crash where a Gixxer 1000 rider at 90mph was killed when he ran wide in a turn:So he went down on his side of the road in a right-hander (the FARS/Google Earth mashup linked in this thread would show exactly where), slid across the centerline, and hit the guardrail. It occurred in daylight, and no adverse pavement conditions were reported. The significant rider-related factor reported is "driving too fast for conditions or in excess of posted limit".
- Overturn/Rollover
- Cross Median/Centerline
- Ran Off Road - Left
- Guardrail Face
I haven't yet posted my analysis of the circumstances of 2008 Bay Area fatal crashes, but I've done the research. For example, 36 of the 98 crashes occurred when a motorcycle ran wide in a curve and hit either a fixed object (like the example above) or an oncoming vehicle, and 18 occurred when a motorcycle collided with a crossing vehicle.
My goal is to improve my chances of avoiding crashes that are likely to cause a significant injury, meaning a doctor visit or worse. One way to do that is get better skills and experience in situations where dropping the bike isn't likely to cause a serious injury, PLP for example. Another way to do it is learn about mistakes other riders make.I dunno. My take is that Dan's info is not to report on actual rider error or lapse in judgment at the point of crash. Instead it looks like trends that act to "set up" a particular type of recurring accident, irrespective of which turn or intersection or onramp.
In aviation the investigator tries to report in the most complete detail possible why an accident happened. Those reports are available to all. If that quality of information was available about motorcycle crashes I'd put some serious time into reading it to see what could be learned.I'm not sure why you'd be interested in specific accidents, but if it's for learning and accident prevention on your part
My goal is to improve my chances of avoiding crashes that are likely to cause a significant injury, meaning a doctor visit or worse. One way to do that is get better skills and experience in situations where dropping the bike isn't likely to cause a serious injury, PLP for example. Another way to do it is learn about mistakes other riders make.In aviation the investigator tries to report in the most complete detail possible why an accident happened. Those reports are available to all. If that quality of information was available about motorcycle crashes I'd put some serious time into reading it to see what could be learned.
People in the safety business will say, he was going too fast or he was drinking or he 'lost control', and that is supposed to stand as the analysis of the crash. May be that's enough for talking about car crashes but it leaves out a lot when bikes are involved. I suspect there are bike crashes caused by freezing at the controls in a ways that are particular to bikes. I also suspect there are turning crashs where the rider senses loss of rear wheel traction and instinctively leans forward to lower his center of gravity which only shifts body weight forward, increasing slip and making the situation worse. I learned about the second possibility in the parking lot doing figure 8s with one hand steering. Turning right is harder than turning left because I have to lean forward in the seat to push the bar far enough to establish the right hand turn. The weight shift forwward increases rear wheel slip compared to a left hand turn. It's those kinds of mistakes that interest me.
There's a smile at the end of the statement, so I'll take it with a grain of salt, but, Justin, that's a short-sighted idea.I am not in the business for anyone's safety except my own.
Many accidents happen with and because of other road users, ie, cars, motorbikes, bicycles, pedestrians, horses, dogs, etc. The safer other road users are, the safer you are.
Can you share the link that has details like the location of accidents?However, (again, preliminary result) from what I can see, the most likely place to die on a bike in the Bay area is on a freeway.
Can you share the link that has details like the location of accidents?
Hey DD and Ogg--I'm taking some GIS classes--if y'all have wreck data in Excel format, I may be able to map it soon.
I work with google earth features a lot, overlays, placemarks etc. and share those with others. I also have comercial mapping software called Global Mapper which can convert all kinds of mapable data to Google Earth KMZ files. There may also be free utilities that convert various map data to kmz. I'm not interested in doing hours of laborious hand work to get map data into GE but I'd use Global Mapper for an automated conversion if that's possible.Might be nice if you have access to ArcView and TIGER line files to do some accident overlays. In the interim google maps or google earth seem to work okay because an interactive web interface is included. Haven't tried either of the google tools with large data sets though. Either way, happy to share what I come up with in a format you can play with.
What is the link where it can be pulled down from? Or how about some key words that will bring it up in a search.In order to keep the data sets small I've been focusing on the SF Bay Area. FARS is a national data set though, so you can pull it down and poke through it for Michigan (or the whole country) if you want.