More Electrical Knowledge Base

[Bay Arean]

Okay, the die is cast. Cabinets ordered, the kitchen shall be re-done.

Feverishly trying to figure what I can and cannot do. Likely to have questions to those masters of the trade.

First and foremost, what possible reason did the housebuilder put the light fixture receptacle an inch and a half above the level of the sheetrock ceiling? It's one of those octagonal boxes, and the fixture and switch lines run through it. It's nailed to a stud but it's placement is bizarre.

They put another removable ring over as a cover but it has a cirlce cut out in it as well. Original owner had mounted flourescent not hanging on it, but why wouldn't someone put the box flush? I found an extender on Amazon that is just right, which MIGHT save me from having to put a whole new box in and have to undo the wiring which I don't understand and then re-do (already was thinking about color tape to mark old lines before I found extender).

I'm trying to move the switch associated with it off a wall that will be demolished over to other side of kitchen. Fished some line and plan on running it in place of old switch. God help me.

Then, they cut a bigger hole anyway, probably so they could get to it. So I get to repair sheetrock and figure out how to get box flush.

Not electrical, but why in god's name did people start blowing in paper insulation? Its on top of the fiberglass foil back. I was up in that nightmare last night crawling through. you cant see any of the romex lines, junction boxes, nothin. Kept the dusk mask on but still wheezin and coughin.. All I could think was (regarding whether to hire and electrician or not, was, "shit, no electrician wants to come up and crawl around this shit. They better be skinny and they better have a great respirator. And they'll probably charge a fortune or figure out some way to work from much easier basement even if it means BX.

We are spendng so much on cabinets I have to do things myself, but I am tempted to hire some bros to vacuum that sucker out.

Part two is this: Gotta add another outlet for new counter area so I bought a double gang for that switch and an outlet. . I guess it's going to be in the middle of a circuit somewhere. I always thought that one black line and one white and a ground can extend to any outlet but I am reading that if its mid circuit, I need to put a hot on the other brass screw side to send it on.

I thought I could just find a junction box up in attic with a known circuit (so I dont' tap into dedicated ones) and run one piece of romex to new box. Am I missing something? I thought any hot could reconnect because its not a switch.

Is that even right, and, if so, besides two-way switches, is that why there is 14-3 and 12-3 sold alongside 14-2 and 12-2? Also, if you have two different circuits on a single outlet, do they use just one white, then break the tab and use the third line to represent the hot of the second circuit, thus not needing two cables to go into receptacle? So confusing because my entire kitchen has outlets that are different circuits top and bottom. I never heard of such a thing.

Thanks. Written from over my head and sinking before I give up and call $90 an hour guy (likely worth every penny).

 

[bikeama]

PM sent with some questions.

How many circuits do you have in your kitchen? If your home is older you may need to add circuits. I had two circuits in my 1978 kitchen now have seven circuits all are AF/GF.

Take lots of pictures we love pictures. :teeth

Below shows where I had to add circuits. Island and cabinets are not in. Don't forget to put strike plates with you go through studs.

 

[Bay Arean]

My house is from 1971 so it has dedicated circuits for fan hood, disposer, dishwasher, stove (220). It doesn't for the refrigerator which kind of surprised me.

Man I don't want to tear that much sheetrock out!

 

[budgie45]

Damn that’s some sloppy wiring :rofl
It’s as well it’s your own house..you wouldn’t need nail plates if you had of put the wires a bit back in that stud

PM sent with some questions.

How many circuits do you have in your kitchen? If your home is older you may need to add circuits. I had two circuits in my 1978 kitchen now have seven circuits all are AF/GF.

Take lots of pictures we love pictures. :teeth

Below shows where I had to add circuits. Island and cabinets are not in. Don't forget to put strike plates with you go through studs.

 

[seadog]

Stud guards depends on depth of stud, where hole for wire is drilled, building code, blah, blah, blah. Usually safer to just put them in. Won't have any problems with inspectors or screws/nails going into wires.

Dust masks are shit. Get a respirator if you like breathing. Seriously, they are not that expensive.

 

[Climber]

OP, get one of these:

Reusable Dust Mask Activated Carbon Dustproof Mask with 8 Carbon N99 Filters Dust Breathing Mask for Pollen Allergy Woodworking Mowing Running Cycling Outdoor Activities
It's an N99 mask with spare filters and will save your lungs.

Good luck with the wiring, in 1971 kitchens were quite different, and moreso in CA.

 

[Bay Arean]

OP, get one of these:

Reusable Dust Mask Activated Carbon Dustproof Mask with 8 Carbon N99 Filters Dust Breathing Mask for Pollen Allergy Woodworking Mowing Running Cycling Outdoor Activities
It's an N99 mask with spare filters and will save your lungs.

Good luck with the wiring, in 1971 kitchens were quite different, and moreso in CA.

Thanks. I tried just now but currently unavailable. Will keep an eye out for one. Sounds great. I do wear specs, so fog-up is always an issue with most respirators.

As for the house, at least it has real ground wires throughout. My last house had these cheesy ultra thin wires hooked to each metal receptacle. So easy to break those.

 

[afm199]

My house is from 1971 so it has dedicated circuits for fan hood, disposer, dishwasher, stove (220). It doesn't for the refrigerator which kind of surprised me.

Man I don't want to tear that much sheetrock out!

Unless the fan hood is a microwave as well, you can use that circuit for area plugs, not by code, but by load. Hood fans are low draw and usually powered by a lighting circuit.

Code requires dish/disposal to be separate. Refrigerators go on local kitchen circuit, they only draw 300-500 amps.

Don't tear out rock. just cut openings large enough to notch a stud and plate it.

 

[Killroy1999]

First and foremost, what possible reason did the housebuilder put the light fixture receptacle an inch and a half above the level of the sheetrock ceiling? It's one of those octagonal boxes, and the fixture and switch lines run through it. It's nailed to a stud but it's placement is bizarre.

They put another removable ring over as a cover but it has a cirlce cut out in it as well. Original owner had mounted flourescent not hanging on it, but why wouldn't someone put the box flush? I found an extender on Amazon that is just right, which MIGHT save me from having to put a whole new box in and have to undo the wiring which I don't understand and then re-do (already was thinking about color tape to mark old lines before I found extender).

I'm planning to build a finished basement room in my place and I have not really done this work either, but I did notice that the with the new LED lights, recessed "cans" are not needed and overall install is much simpler with just a hole in the sheetrock.

Why not flush for your house? I'm not sure, but perhaps a sound proofing decouple? That's a while guess because I don't know your situation perfectly. I have successfully used extenders before.

 

[Bay Arean]

Unless the fan hood is a microwave as well, you can use that circuit for area plugs, not by code, but by load. Hood fans are low draw and usually powered by a lighting circuit.

Code requires dish/disposal to be separate. Refrigerators go on local kitchen circuit, they only draw 300-500 amps.

Don't tear out rock. just cut openings large enough to notch a stud and plate it.

Yeah, the cabinet designer lady tried to get us to use (and buy new) a micro-fan but I voted against it, favoring a simple range hood. I just can't figure out how that thing won't get covered in grease because we cook a lot, compared to most people. I also don't like the idea of reaching up (we are both short) to get my hot liquids out of a micro. Thanks for tip because I do have to get another outlet goin.

 

[Bay Arean]

I'm planning to build a finished basement room in my place and I have not really done this work either, but I did notice that the with the new LED lights, recessed "cans" are not needed and overall install is much simpler with just a hole in the sheetrock.

Why not flush for your house? I'm not sure, but perhaps a sound proofing decouple? That's a while guess because I don't know your situation perfectly. I have successfully used extenders before.

We have been kicking this around a lot so thanks for input. As it is, Ms BA doesn't like cans in general. But you are absolutely right, I didn't realize LEDs were so shallow. I still have to replace that sheetrock and still cut a circle anyway. Somehow i missed that they are so shallow. I see that its only 2.4 inches though which would be a bit tricky considering it's a regular size receptacle above it...

We have three lights in kitchen. A main one, an over the sink and one in the back of room that has the bad hole situation. The first two are on a single switch, third on its own. Ms. BA was thinking about trying to find a set of lights that would match up, but I might try and convince her to go with can for problem one. Sending her a link. Thanks!

 

[Bay Arean]

NEXT QUESTIONS:

When you are remodeling and are going to install all new cabinetry and wish to have LED under-cabinet lighting, how do you prepare or create power sources? Do you tap from a nearby outlet, , put in a round receptacle and dangle hot wires outside? I can't quite figure out how I will get power to my new cabinets without plugging them in. I have even seen battery powered ones for people who don't want to bother wiring in with existing. I also know that under-cabinets require a transformer or something, where the heck does that go anyway? I have been looking online and haven't found answer yet.

In my mind, I think maybe, all connected to one circuit, one switch, with multiple on-off rockers at actual locations , but that sounds frickin complicated. Or just all wired hot using individual rockers. Problem is I have at least three sets to put in, two on one side of kitchen. Kills me to drill through virginal new expensive cabinets but oh well.

And, it is kosher to use a box extender from existing wall receptacle directly into cabinet and mount switchplate right on back wall of cabinet? Sounds nutty but she wants outlet inside one of them because she has decided micro has to live in a cabinet to save precious counterspace in dinky kitchen. This required us to order fancy expensive door front that shunts up just to use micro. Makes me crazy but these are the compromises we must make in couples living.

 

[afm199]

I'm planning to build a finished basement room in my place and I have not really done this work either, but I did notice that the with the new LED lights, recessed "cans" are not needed and overall install is much simpler with just a hole in the sheetrock.

Why not flush for your house? I'm not sure, but perhaps a sound proofing decouple? That's a while guess because I don't know your situation perfectly. I have successfully used extenders before.

This is not to code and dangerous. Any current carrying conductor in a home ( aside from current limited stuff like doorbells) is required to follow code.

 

[afm199]

NEXT QUESTIONS:

When you are remodeling and are going to install all new cabinetry and wish to have LED under-cabinet lighting, how do you prepare or create power sources? Do you tap from a nearby outlet, , put in a round receptacle and dangle hot wires outside? I can't quite figure out how I will get power to my new cabinets without plugging them in. I have even seen battery powered ones for people who don't want to bother wiring in with existing. I also know that under-cabinets require a transformer or something, where the heck does that go anyway? I have been looking online and haven't found answer yet.

In my mind, I think maybe, all connected to one circuit, one switch, with multiple on-off rockers at actual locations , but that sounds frickin complicated. Or just all wired hot using individual rockers. Problem is I have at least three sets to put in, two on one side of kitchen. Kills me to drill through virginal new expensive cabinets but oh well.

And, it is kosher to use a box extender from existing wall receptacle directly into cabinet and mount switchplate right on back wall of cabinet? Sounds nutty but she wants outlet inside one of them because she has decided micro has to live in a cabinet to save precious counterspace in dinky kitchen. This required us to order fancy expensive door front that shunts up just to use micro. Makes me crazy but these are the compromises we must make in couples living.

You find places for transformers. In attic J boxes, in cabinets, under cabinets, etc. I've installed hundreds of them like that.

Be very careful with the LED lighting. It's important to rigorously follow code. They may be "low voltage' but a 50 watt light will carry 5 AMPS of current, which is a huge amount and can start a fire quite easily.

 

[afm199]

One of the misunderstanding people have about low voltage lighting is that it does not need "large" wiring, and doorbell wiring will work, because, doh, doorbells are low voltage.

Five 50 watt LED lights is 20 amps. That's too much for 12 gauge wiring.

 

[Bay Arean]

One of the misunderstanding people have about low voltage lighting is that it does not need "large" wiring, and doorbell wiring will work, because, doh, doorbells are low voltage.

Five 50 watt LED lights is 20 amps. That's too much for 12 gauge wiring.

That is so counterintuitive to all the energy savings because they are obviously different phenom. Thanks..

 

[Climber]

That is so counterintuitive to all the energy savings because they are obviously different phenom. Thanks..

All of my LED bulbs are between 7 and 13 watts.

 

[Sharxfan]

What I am planning to do is get an LED light strip and will run the wires which will be tiny through the cabinet and then just put the light strip on the underside of the cabinet. I got a 60ft strip for my daughter's room and it is only going to draw like 5A. If I do say 30 for under cabinet it will be maybe 2 or 3A. But remember the more LEDs per inch will up the current draw for them.

 

[afm199]

All of my LED bulbs are between 7 and 13 watts.

Correct, and that's a typical size. The 13 watt bulb still pulls over an amp. Put your hand over a small space heater rated at 500 watts. That's four amps.

 

[afm199]

What I am planning to do is get an LED light strip and will run the wires which will be tiny through the cabinet and then just put the light strip on the underside of the cabinet. I got a 60ft strip for my daughter's room and it is only going to draw like 5A. If I do say 30 for under cabinet it will be maybe 2 or 3A. But remember the more LEDs per inch will up the current draw for them.

Be absolutely sure that the wires are sized for the load.

Only 5 amps is a huge amount of current. That's what refrigerator uses, believe it or not.