Making a mistake on the track
- Thread starter atek3
- Start date
Wrong Way
Well-known member
My two pennies
Approaching turn 7 and exiting turn 7 you should be consistently accelerating. On the drive you should be drifting to the outside. If you are drifting too much it is because of bad body position or too much speed or both.
For that turn I would have reassessed my body position (possibly leaning in more even if it is only with my shoulder and head) and adjusted my speed by gradually rolling the throttle towards neutral input but probably still accelerating. At least that is what I have done in that turn in that situation.
Approaching turn 7 and exiting turn 7 you should be consistently accelerating. On the drive you should be drifting to the outside. If you are drifting too much it is because of bad body position or too much speed or both.
For that turn I would have reassessed my body position (possibly leaning in more even if it is only with my shoulder and head) and adjusted my speed by gradually rolling the throttle towards neutral input but probably still accelerating. At least that is what I have done in that turn in that situation.
Last edited:
GiorgioFurioso
on sabbatical
Top answer OP's q's, I have found myself going too hot in the corner, said FUCK IT, leaned a little more, then dragged toe then footpeg (fixed) and levered the rear off the ground going in to T14 at THill (my first time at that track). In retrospect I think I didn't need more lean angle and I would handled it differently, by moving my body around.
I have also, on a number of occasions at several tracks, gave up on a corner and stood the bike up. Not once did I drop the bike. The secret is to not use the front brake! Choose your line before hitting the dirt, stand it up, gently roll off throttle, and gently use the rear break (not necessarily in that order). Come to a complete stop and take a deep breath.
:2cents
I have also, on a number of occasions at several tracks, gave up on a corner and stood the bike up. Not once did I drop the bike. The secret is to not use the front brake! Choose your line before hitting the dirt, stand it up, gently roll off throttle, and gently use the rear break (not necessarily in that order). Come to a complete stop and take a deep breath.
:2cents
emarkham
Gimme an 'O'!
with regard to entering t-hill turn 7 and drifting wide, that used to happen to me a lot before my suspension was adjusted. it may be a mechanical issue as well that is starting the whole cycle of feeling like you are too hot... in effect, yes, you are in too hot because neither you nor the bike is properly prepared to deal with that speed through that particular corner.
Yody
Well-known member
atek3 said:
I"ve cranked it over and lowsided before like you asked.
HOWEVER, blaming the crash on running out of lean angle was not the answer. The real reason was that I was not hanging off enough for the lines I was taking. SECOND I was not setting up for the turn on time, meaning that I would scoot my ass over way too late which made me inconsistent with my hang off technique. I would get into some turns really quickly, set up too late and not hang off enough because I rushed it. Got into the turn and carried a lot of lean angle and then in a split second realized I was going to run wide, turned it in some more and low sided.
You might need some rearsets that are higher up for that bike BUT FIRST you need to probably slow down and work on your technique if you are dragging hard parts. It sounds like you are still in the C class? If you are going to have stock rearsets that are placed fairly low the KEY to this situation is to not get into it. You should be setting up way before the turn and be hanging off pretty good through the turn.
Also when going wide giving it more gas makes you go even wider. It was teh acceleration that made you go wide. IF you were in a perfect world and had great form and all, I would say to gently roll off the gas but not all the way as you have to keep some maintenance throttle. I think your problem is most likely body positioning.
clutchslip
Not as fast as I look.
Boy, do I agree with this one.Holeshot said:
It seems that a lot of folks have never crashed from dragging hard parts. I have on several occasions, so my toes tend to hang too low. This makes it tougher to drag knee. I'm working on it, though.
Standing it up on a track (assuming no one is in the way), should be fine. Standing it up on a right-hander in the street is a bad idea.
NoQuarter said:
I noticed a slide - catch on that tape. Was that a pucker or just normal operating procedure?
Z3n
Squid.
Holeshot said:
It seems to me that if you're cranked over in a corner, with a peg dragging, getting on the brakes is going to compress your suspension, reducing ground clearence, and causing the peg to attempt to dig in. Also, if you're moving at any significant speed, getting on the front brake like that seems like it would load up the front tire, adding to the chances of washing out the front.
slydrite
On a brake
*sigh*
soooo many complicated, wordy answers that miss the real reason, which is also the simpliest reason, why you felt the need to run off the track at the exit.....
I would put money on the fact that you turned in too early/too quickly and that your early apex caused you to have a early exit...IOW, I bet it ain't about your perceived lack of lean angle at all.....
T7 at Thill should be easy WOT on an SV650, with good tires, susp set up and most importantly, proper line....try turning in just a bit later next time and notice the difference in your trajectory after the apex and I bet you don't even get to full lean angle if on the proper line.....
soooo many complicated, wordy answers that miss the real reason, which is also the simpliest reason, why you felt the need to run off the track at the exit.....
I would put money on the fact that you turned in too early/too quickly and that your early apex caused you to have a early exit...IOW, I bet it ain't about your perceived lack of lean angle at all.....
T7 at Thill should be easy WOT on an SV650, with good tires, susp set up and most importantly, proper line....try turning in just a bit later next time and notice the difference in your trajectory after the apex and I bet you don't even get to full lean angle if on the proper line.....
clutchslip
Not as fast as I look.
Z3n said:
This statement assumes you use too much brake. It also assumes that you are doing nothing else to stop dragging parts. I think we all understand that excessive braking while in a heavy lean is not a great idea and Holeshot said as much.
I don't know about you, but I can brake in a corner and tighten my line or I can brake and bring the bike up, thus slowing and widening my line. But I don't JUST brake.
Now, this may be completely correct for the particular incident. I don't ride that bike and I wasn't there, so I don't know.slydrite said:
Z3n
Squid.
clutchslip said:
Right...but in this case, tightening your turn will increase lean angle, causing a greater chance of fixed pegs digging in, and standing the bike up a bit more is going to just cause you to run wide even more, which isn't going to be helping much when you're trying to avoid running wide in the first place.
It seems to me that a novice rider (or any rider, short of a-/b+ trackday riders, or racers, are going to be best served by staying off the front brake in a situation like that. If you're trying to scrub a little speed, great...but if you're going in too fast, going to run wide badly enough that you're considering standing it up and running it into the dirt, going for the front brake, however lightly, seems like a bad idea. Especially at full lean, when you're looking at an incredibly gentle touch on the brakes in order to avoid washing the front as a result of overbraking or simply loading the front from the braking action as a whole.
If you've got the touch for light braking, then i'm sure you'd advice will be well used. In this situation, though, i think telling someone to get on the front is going to cause a lot of lowsides.
...and it really depends on the reason for running wide as well...and the corner type. Using the rear brake slightly to tighten a line is an advanced technique, but one that work for sweepers, etc.
If you're dragging hard parts, you've got the get bike whoa'd up somehow, or giveaway some lean angle. Those are really your two options. considering we're likely talking about a sweeper type turn, using a small amount of brake to tighten a line isn't out of the spectrum. I have no idea the level of whom, nor who should not use such a technique.
If you're dragging hard parts, you've got the get bike whoa'd up somehow, or giveaway some lean angle. Those are really your two options. considering we're likely talking about a sweeper type turn, using a small amount of brake to tighten a line isn't out of the spectrum. I have no idea the level of whom, nor who should not use such a technique.
Z3n
Squid.
Holeshot said:
Rear brake, yes...front brake, no. You'll notice that i originally started on this line of thought after reading sharky's post, about using the front brake when getting in too hard and fast, and that's also why i specified front brake in my previous post.
Again, it's really relevant as to what kind of turn you're in. In a tight decreasing radius turn, staying off the brakes is, IMHO, the way to go. Maybe drag a little rear brake...but i'm more likely to lean it in and go for it, rather than attempting to slow down.
I was under the assumption that we were still talking about a situation where you're dragging hard parts, and in that sort of situation, i wouldn't advise getting on either brake, as settling the chassis is going to cause a greater chance of the pegs digging in. I'd maintain as best i can, try and get off the bike and on to my knee a bit more, and pray. Also, how are you supposed to drag rear brake whe you're cranked over on the right side? Any significant application of the brake lever itself will probably cause dragging, if you can even wedge your foot into the space between the peg and the ground. I've got wide feet, and i'm on my toes up on the pegs through the turn anyways, trying to tuck them up and far away from teh ground as possible, which makes it hard to drag any rear brake at all.
clutchslip
Not as fast as I look.
I really think this is one of the better discussions I have read about different techniques in a dangerous situation.
It is most fortuitous that this weekend at Thunderhill, I stood the bike up to avoid a certain (in my mind) crash into turn one.
The situation:
I was trying to carry more speed before turning into one. I was at an accurate 128 mph when I passed the checkered stripe and started to make my turn-in move. Whoops. "Too late", I thought, "I'm going to end-up wide and low-side off the outside tiger teeth".
I pulled it back-up as I gradually increased brake pressure. I went off into the mud for a little ways. I waved to the corner tower and motored-on.
Dito got it on film!!!!! I have included one shot, with his permission, to show how to stand-up a bike and get off track, safely. You can see the sequence at his site.
Please note in the photo:
A. I am standing on the pegs. NO sitting down.
B. No weight on the handle-bars.
B. The clutch is in.
C. I am GRADUALLY coming off the front brake.
D. I am GRADUALLY applying the rear brake.
No drama, no nothing. Like I said before: Standing-up a bike on the track should be a safe escape route. Ride it like a dirt bike in the dirt, for goodness sake.
It is most fortuitous that this weekend at Thunderhill, I stood the bike up to avoid a certain (in my mind) crash into turn one.
The situation:
I was trying to carry more speed before turning into one. I was at an accurate 128 mph when I passed the checkered stripe and started to make my turn-in move. Whoops. "Too late", I thought, "I'm going to end-up wide and low-side off the outside tiger teeth".
I pulled it back-up as I gradually increased brake pressure. I went off into the mud for a little ways. I waved to the corner tower and motored-on.
Dito got it on film!!!!! I have included one shot, with his permission, to show how to stand-up a bike and get off track, safely. You can see the sequence at his site.
Please note in the photo:
A. I am standing on the pegs. NO sitting down.
B. No weight on the handle-bars.
B. The clutch is in.
C. I am GRADUALLY coming off the front brake.
D. I am GRADUALLY applying the rear brake.
No drama, no nothing. Like I said before: Standing-up a bike on the track should be a safe escape route. Ride it like a dirt bike in the dirt, for goodness sake.
scalvert
Well-known member
On the original poster's situation, I think there are two simple variables here: 1) line choise, 2) lean angle confidence.
I've been through T7 at Thunderhill on an SV more times than I can count. Even with a sweet tire sliding knee/peg down apex at T6 with a great drive, on an SV with flatslides and cams, T7 never feels like a real corner. I don't know that I've ever needed to even put a knee down in it.
So if to my thinking you probably were way way way off line, turning in several miles too early. If you do that, sometimes there's just no help because you've made the corner much tighter than normal and you just won't make it.
Either way, I doubt that you were at maximum lean. I've seen and done this many times myself, and newer track riders are famous for it. You commit to a corner at lean angle X, and your brain tells you that's all the bike's got left. When your line proves to be a bad one, you simply refuse to take more lean angle, even though it's there to be had. Next thing you know you're doing the 90 mph motocross.
Knowing how much cornering potential is left in the bike is a large part of why racers 1) put a knee down, and 2) use really pricey race tires. Putting a knee down gives you immediate feedback as to your real lean angle so if there's more to be had you know it. Good race tires also very rarely just dump you on your head. They give lots and lots of feedback before going away and an experienced rider will feel what the tire is doing and use that to guage how much they can tighten a line.
I've been through T7 at Thunderhill on an SV more times than I can count. Even with a sweet tire sliding knee/peg down apex at T6 with a great drive, on an SV with flatslides and cams, T7 never feels like a real corner. I don't know that I've ever needed to even put a knee down in it.
So if to my thinking you probably were way way way off line, turning in several miles too early. If you do that, sometimes there's just no help because you've made the corner much tighter than normal and you just won't make it.
Either way, I doubt that you were at maximum lean. I've seen and done this many times myself, and newer track riders are famous for it. You commit to a corner at lean angle X, and your brain tells you that's all the bike's got left. When your line proves to be a bad one, you simply refuse to take more lean angle, even though it's there to be had. Next thing you know you're doing the 90 mph motocross.
Knowing how much cornering potential is left in the bike is a large part of why racers 1) put a knee down, and 2) use really pricey race tires. Putting a knee down gives you immediate feedback as to your real lean angle so if there's more to be had you know it. Good race tires also very rarely just dump you on your head. They give lots and lots of feedback before going away and an experienced rider will feel what the tire is doing and use that to guage how much they can tighten a line.