Making a mistake on the track

[atek3]

last time I was out on the track was in july and I ran wide on the exit of turn 7 at thunderhill. I entered the corner with a bit more speed than before and after hitting the apex I saw that that my line was taking me on a trajectory that would have left the track.

I was afraid to crank it over more because I'd already scraped the non-folding peg on my SV earlier in the day and I didn't want to lever the back tire and lowside or if I didn't lowside, but didn't make the turn I'd hit the dirt at a 45 degree angle going very fast. So I pussied out stood the bike up and ran wide. I kept the bike up right and avoided crashing, but that was straight up luck.

Has anyone else been in a situation where they were definately carrying "too much" cornering speed and just said "F" it, cranked it over and made the turn? Or conversely, anyone had an "oh shit" cranked it over more and low sided?

thanks,
atek3

 

[fuldog]

When I find myself into a turn too hot, I almost always do exactly what you did. I've been lucky and not crashed doing this, but I know it's wrong. That's why it's important to go in a little slower than possible so you can power out. According to Keith Code what we did in this situation is a normal survival reaction that must be unlearned by practice.

 

[hayabusafiend]

A crash is almost guaranteed if you stand the bike up and go straight.

There's something to be said about the habit of adding a little more lean, staying on the gas and "going for it" when you realize you're in too hot.

To answer your question, "going for it" has saved my butt on more than one occasion.

 

[emarkham]

you'd be amazed what maintaining the throttle and dragging a slight amount of brake while looking through the turn can do. i sure was.

 

[DataDan]

Fixed footpegs mounted low enough to scrape are not a good idea. If you look at pro racebikes with fixed pegs, you'll see that they are mounted high enough to stay off the ground until the bike is leaned so far that the tires have already given up. Unless you can mount them higher, I'd recommend folding pegs (have you tried Gixxer pegs on the SV?) and learn to deal with the occasional harmless scrape.

 

[Holeshot]

I'd disagree with Hayabusafiend, that going off guarantees a crash. That being said, making every effort to stay on pavement is important. However, there are times when you're just not going to make the corner...say when the bike pops out of gear on corner entry (Laguna T5, US GP AMA practice...) or you really overcook a corner and don't have enough time to slow down (Miller Motorsports AMA T1, passing Oppie Caylor/ Tony Meiring and shooting off track).

Had I not straightened the bike upright in those instances, I most surely would have put the thing on the ground in spectaclular fashion as soon as I actually did hit the dirt, or went past the maximum lean angle.

One thing to think about: always look where you want to go and make definitive decisions. If you decided you're going off track, then do so and find a nice smooth line (with your feet off the pegs) to take.

 

[atek3]

feet off the pegs?

last time I ran wide I weighted the pegs and motocrossed it... had I not weighted the pegs I probably would have eaten it.

I applied light pressure on the back brake... any on the front and it would have washed out.

 

[Ironbutt]

Has anyone else been in a situation where they were definately carrying "too much" cornering speed and just said "F" it, cranked it over and made the turn? Or conversely, anyone had an "oh shit" cranked it over more and low sided?

thanks,
atek3

Yea, it's why I'm still alive and not logging into BARF from the gates of Hell.. Seriously... ......I don't think they have the network infastructure in Hell yet.

What someone else said.. Always ...COMMIT to the turn and keep looking out as far as you can see. Don't ever look away..

That funky "I'M GOING TO DIEEEEEEEE" feeling.. it goes away with trust and seat time.

If anything you'll wash low side..

which is much better than being flung off like a booger into somthing or "sticking it" "Like Beckman" into a farking wall.. Or worse..

If your commited and you stay comitted.. you'll be okay.. it's kinda like being married. Okay.. it's not even close.. I frogot where I where I was going with this but... regardless.. look, lean and give it gas..

 

[zeefrenchspy]

So far I'm 1 for 4 in regards to the number of times straightening up and hitting the brakes has made me crash as opposed to saved my ass. Could I have made the turn with a little more lean, possibly, but hitting the brakes hard enough to scrub your excess speed can also allow you to go dirt riding safely (as long as there's run-off)

 

[Z3n]

Always, always, always lean it farther and leave the throttle open. If you're that far over, touching any brake but the rear is going to screw you, and even then it's more than possible that you're going to be screwed by hitting the rear brake. My feet are on the pegs once i'm commited, so i just have to lean it in farther...You can drag pegs without jacking the bike up and off the ground, but i wouldn't make a habit of it. If you were already commited to the point of dragging pegs, then you're probably better off standing it up...otherwise, lean it in farther until shit scrapes. I wouldn't be touching the brakes in a situation like that at all. If you're of the knee dragging sort, get on the gas, get some weight over that knee, and expand your understanding of the level of lean angle that you can achieve.

Also, did you have toe sliders? Were those dragging? put my feet on the pegs in a way that when my toe touches down i'm really, really close to touching a peg, which isn't always max lean angle...but i'm using rearset plates, not true rearsets, and still have folding pegs on my bike.

I have been in a situation where i ended up coming in too fast, on the street, following a much faster friend on his own roads, which i had never ridden before, and i got myself into a decreasing radius right hander much too quickly...I knew that i could make the turn, but i was going to pass the double yellow, so i prayed it wouldn't wash out, gave it some gas, dragged knee, toe, and little bit of peg, and gassed it on out. It was a very powerful reminder to settle down, ride at 80% on the street. If you're not dragging toe sliders yet, get it in farther. I'll take my chances with the road over taking my chances with the dirt, which could have ditches, etc. At least on the road, i've got more variables under my control. I place my feet on the pegs so that i get the best possible use out of my assorted sliders, and a situation like what you're talking about is exactly what i'm prepared for....lean lean lean until your toes drag, and then get the weight off the inside peg and lean it some more.

Also, depending on the make of your rearsets, it's possible to grind a bit off of them without actually having them dig in, especially if you're on the gas. If you think you're going to drag something, get on the gas, try and lift the body of the bike a bit more, get less weight over the peg, and pray...

 

[Holeshot]

Dragging hard parts unweights the rear end...then adding throttle creates the accident. This idea of "when in doubt lean it harder and gas it" is recipe for an accident. A moto basic is not the add lean angle and throttle/ brake. You can do one or the other, but not both...

 

[Z3n]

Dragging hard parts unweights the rear end...then adding throttle creates the accident. This idea of "when in doubt lean it harder and gas it" is recipe for an accident. A moto basic is not the add lean angle and throttle/ brake. You can do one or the other, but not both...

It really is going to depend on how hard you smack them into the tarmac...if you just scrape them and slide them, it's probably not going to unweight the back end in a significant way. While adding throttle might be bad, chopping the throttle or even rolling off, or perhaps attempting to get on either brake in that situation would be much, much worse. However, in the case of the OP, he wasn't even dragging hard parts yet, he had just done it earlier in the day, which, IMHO, means that he should have leaned it in and given it a bit of gas to try and get it off the deck.

In the end, it's very situational, and in the situation that most beginners find themselves in, they're going to be benifited by leaning it, getting on the gas a bit, and they'll probably find that they weren't going to drag hard parts at all. It's certainly a common occurance among the beginning trackday riders i saw at the track...a couple of times, you'd see people just stand the bike up for no real reason and walk it off the edge, despite having plenty more lean angle to go...the mind is a funny thing when you're trying to go fast around a corner.

If you're already dragging hard parts and you're not going to make it...that's something else entirely. Until that point, i say lean it, keep the throttle open, and lean it some more.

Add to that that most of the people in that situation are dragging hard parts not because they're at max lean angle, but because they're not on the gas through a turn, leaving no ground clearence at all.

 

[emarkham]

Dragging hard parts unweights the rear end...then adding throttle creates the accident. This idea of "when in doubt lean it harder and gas it" is recipe for an accident. A moto basic is not the add lean angle and throttle/ brake. You can do one or the other, but not both...

sure. *if* the bike is already leaned over as far as it actually can be. some human beings can be really really bad at accurately judging subtle things like that during a "pucker moment".

i have had dito snap a shot of me while going around a corner, and i've thought "man, i've got this thing *cranked* over!" only to look at the picture later and realize there was a lot of clearance left.

there have been so many times as i've watched people in real life and on video just give it up on a turn, even though they could have made it through. you get your body and your mind in the wrong place, and suddenly, making it around that corner becomes impossible.

so let's be clear here: if the bike really is leaned over as far as it can go, if the tires are really at the edge of traction, leaning it over further will cause more problems than it solves.

but for all the off-track excursions i have ever been on, that's never, not once been true. every turn i ever stood it up for and rode off the track, in retrospect, i could have, i *should* have tried to ride through it, because the times when i did, i learned more about where the limit *actually is*, as opposed to where i mistakenly believed it was.

 

[Holeshot]

Good points guys. I'd agree that it's always better to keep the bike on track and attempt to make the turn. However, my thought was on the rare times when running off the track is the only option availible, in the case of severely missed brake markers, or a bike that pops out of gear on corner entry. Those situations don't allow any room for errors and additional steering, etc.

Also, let's be clear what additional lean angle allows: additonal steering. Simply leaning a bike over while not allowing the bike to steer (done so by keeping that inner arm REAL loose) will only exacerbate the issue. Remember, the tire has to turn into the turn more to cause additional steering.

I wouldn't add more lean angle if I knew hard parts were dragging. That's just me, but I'd have some interesting moments when hard parts have dragged and none of them have been fun. Certainly we don't want to chop the throttle but it is possible to roll off somewhat unless the front is sliding, and considering this scenario, I doubt that's an issue. Adding throttle is the wrong thing to do, IMO as with that, we'd need to increase steering/ add some lean angle.

 

[07chuck]

The short answer is:

Both you and your bike made it out whole... That is not a crash, just a trail ride(not the dirt nap)....

Knowing how/why you messed up is priceless....

Since I wasn't riding your bike I have no idea what you did "wrong?"....


Neither does anyone else....


Really

 

[Z3n]

Good points guys. I'd agree that it's always better to keep the bike on track and attempt to make the turn. However, my thought was on the rare times when running off the track is the only option availible, in the case of severely missed brake markers, or a bike that pops out of gear on corner entry. Those situations don't allow any room for errors and additional steering, etc.

Agreed, 100%...however, most people, especially novice trackday riders, have no idea what a missed brake marker really is, as they've not established a concrete set of markers yet. In the case of an experienced rider coming in far too fast, there's less that you can consider.

Also, let's be clear what additional lean angle allows: additonal steering. Simply leaning a bike over while not allowing the bike to steer (done so by keeping that inner arm REAL loose) will only exacerbate the issue. Remember, the tire has to turn into the turn more to cause additional steering.

Well, i anticipated that the rider would be using countersteering to lean it more, not simple trying to body english it in or something.

I wouldn't add more lean angle if I knew hard parts were dragging. That's just me, but I'd have some interesting moments when hard parts have dragged and none of them have been fun. Certainly we don't want to chop the throttle but it is possible to roll off somewhat unless the front is sliding, and considering this scenario, I doubt that's an issue. Adding throttle is the wrong thing to do, IMO as with that, we'd need to increase steering/ add some lean angle. [/B]

If hard parts were already dragging...yeah, that's a bit of a different case. All of my pegs have always been cut and rounded, or mobile, so that if i do touch a peg down, i still have some options. The concept of digging in, well, unplesent. The other thing to note is that on most modern 600's, with modern tires in good shape, most people probably aren't pushing the limits of the tires so far that adding a little gas will cause the back end to suddenly drift out, but that little gas may, just may, give you a bit more ground clearence. I'm not talking about winging it open, and probably should have clarified that...I'm talking about perhaps giving it a little bit more throttle to try and keep the parts off the ground. Again, it's very situational, but from what i've learned riding with novice riders, many of them will claim they're getting on the gas hard, when they're barely maintaining speed through the corner, much less establishing and maintaining the ideal 40/60 weight distribution on the tires.

In this situation, though, it must be stressed that everything must be done extremely smoothly. Just relax, feel the bike, what it's trying to tell you, and you'll make it through just fine.

 

[Holeshot]

Z3, agreed...especially with what Chuck said...I suppose we'd have to be there!

 

[Sharky]

The last time I ran into a similiar situation, I stuck with the corner (I was alreay dragging hard parts) and gave a like front brake to get back online. Well despite working most of that day, I lost the front and whammo, faceplant lowside. If faced with the same situation again, I'd probably stand it up and ride through the dirt (there was plenty of room and I was doing 25mph on my YSR). As HS said, sometimes standing it up is a better option. For me, hanging in there and sticking with the corner was such an instinct I failed to make the right decision.
So in the end, what's better?
It all depends I guess.

 

[NoQuarter]

.... or you really overcook a corner and don't have enough time to slow down (Miller Motorsports AMA T1, passing Oppie Caylor/ Tony Meiring and shooting off track).
...

you looked like a low flying jet on that one! nice dust cloud you kicked up on your route... that was a great save to bring it back and still finish 14th in a national

here's the view of that incident from a couple of seconds back:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6691546161554662989&hl=en#0h8m32s

 

[Z3n]

The last time I ran into a similiar situation, I stuck with the corner (I was alreay dragging hard parts) and gave a like front brake to get back online. Well despite working most of that day, I lost the front and whammo, faceplant lowside. If faced with the same situation again, I'd probably stand it up and ride through the dirt (there was plenty of room and I was doing 25mph on my YSR). As HS said, sometimes standing it up is a better option. For me, hanging in there and sticking with the corner was such an instinct I failed to make the right decision.
So in the end, what's better?
It all depends I guess.

You were dragging hard parts, and decided the best idea was to start in with the front brake? Did i misread your post?