Hwy 130, Mines rd 5/2/15. two bikes down.

[ViperThreat]

Resenting the fact that I'm posting here, but for the sake of everybody's safety and learning, here goes.


Went on a mines run yesterday in the late afteroon. The road was pretty dirty, so our pace was relatively mellow, and I was keeping to the center of the road to avoid the dirt on the edges. About 10 miles past The Junction, heading up the back side to Lick Observatory, I entered a medium right turn. About half-way though, I encountered some rough pavement that upset my balance. Sadly, I was unable to recover in time and went off the edge into the dirt embankment.

A rider behind me hit the same pavement and lowsided. You can see his bike later in the footage.


Video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds_HQwibBcM


So here's the hard part- evaluating my own mistakes.

- I was going too fast. I' could have avoided this mistake if I had been going slower. I think this is a valid argument for most crashes, but the truth is I was in close range of the 35mph speed limit when the wreck occurred. Still, I couldn't see the road ahead of me, which ultimately led to the accident.

- When the bike first hit the pavement and the rear tire jumped, my first reaction was to let off the throttle and try to regain my balance.Once I had my balance back, I leaned hard over the side of my bike, but also engaged the brakes to try to reduce my speed. This prevented the bike from dropping back into the turn. Had I not hit the brakes, I may have been able to complete the turn.

-I didn't ditch the bike. Once it was clear that there was no recovering, I should have induced a low-side. It probably would have reduced the damage done to myself and my bike.



Damage- The bike is definitely totaled. Not a single piece of body-work is still in one piece, both wheels are bent, and it looks like the forks are bent as well. I cant tell if the frame is damaged, but I'm assuming it is. My helmet is pretty scratched up, and will be mounted as a trophy above the fireplace. The suit held up surprisingly well, though I haven't given it a full inspection. I'm not sure if I can use it again. Boots are toast, gloves seem to be okay.


Injuries - I was riding ATGATT in a full Sedici Suit, HJC Helmet, with riding boots & gloves. During the wreck, my left foot peg pierced the top of my boot and lacerated the top of my foot while simultaneously crushing it. It's pretty swollen, but I'm able to hobble around on tip-toe. I will be going to a doctor later today for an x-ray. I'm a bit sore, but beyond that, Alive and healthy.

ATGATT 4 Life

 

[Kornholio]

Maybe it's just me, but it looks like you started straightening up before your front tire passed that bad pavement spot. :dunno

 

[ViperThreat]

It's hard to see in the footage, the pavement gets pretty wavy before the potholes. I was already off balance by the time I went over the nastier spots.

 

[Kornholio]

Gotcha. I must have missed it.

 

[danate]

Good on you for posting this as there is a lot to learn from it. It's very helpful having video footage.

First thing I noticed is that from the point where your bike gets "upset," I can hear your throttle constantly decreasing as you are going wider and wider in the turn. This is the number one reason for single rider crashes. If you were braking as well, that was also eliminating your chances of recovering.

Your turn actually started out alright. You had a decent line and you had rolled on the throttle early. Whatever it was startled you and you started decreasing the throttle and going wider and wider. Had you gotten back on the gas and given more steering input (i.e. push harder with your right arm) you should have easily made the turn. If you stay on the gas, the suspension will be weighted more evenly and will allow the rear wheel to drive you out of trouble. By reducing throttle and braking, you put more weight on the front wheel, amplifying any instability you are already feeling and making it more difficult to make steering input. This also greatly reduces your front wheel traction, though it didn't appear to wash out in the video.

Glad you didn't get too seriously hurt and good on you for wearing all your gear. Get yourself in ASAP for that foot though as foot injuries can be terrible if you ignore them.

Oh yeah, and when you say you were off balance, do you mean you yourself? or you the bike? Everything actually seemed pretty smooth up until impact.

 

[danate]

Couple other things, you should never "ditch" the bike. Just keep making steering input until you make the turn. If you do that and reach full lean and are still going wide, you can then try to add more body input to make it, but at that point there isn't much more you can do.

It really seems like that rough patch panicked you more than anything. Not sure where you were looking, but I'm guessing that as you hit it, you were not looking through the turn.

When the bike first hit the pavement and the rear tire jumped, my first reaction was to let off the throttle and try to regain my balance.Once I had my balance back, I leaned hard over the side of my bike, but also engaged the brakes to try to reduce my speed. This prevented the bike from dropping back into the turn. Had I not hit the brakes, I may have been able to complete the turn.

This sentence describes the error pretty well. Your first instinct after the wheel hop should be to look through the turn and keep the throttle engaged. Trying to lean to steer the bike is not effective enough to get you back on track.

 

[ViperThreat]

Good on you for posting this as there is a lot to learn from it. It's very helpful having video footage.

First thing I noticed is that from the point where your bike gets "upset," I can hear your throttle constantly decreasing as you are going wider and wider in the turn. This is the number one reason for single rider crashes. If you were braking as well, that was also eliminating your chances of recovering.

Your turn actually started out alright. You had a decent line and you had rolled on the throttle early. Whatever it was startled you and you started decreasing the throttle and going wider and wider. Had you gotten back on the gas and given more steering input (i.e. push harder with your right arm) you should have easily made the turn. If you stay on the gas, the suspension will be weighted more evenly and will allow the rear wheel to drive you out of trouble. By reducing throttle and braking, you put more weight on the front wheel, amplifying any instability you are already feeling and making it more difficult to make steering input. This also greatly reduces your front wheel traction, though it didn't appear to wash out in the video.

Glad you didn't get too seriously hurt and good on you for wearing all your gear. Get yourself in ASAP for that foot though as foot injuries can be terrible if you ignore them.

Oh yeah, and when you say you were off balance, do you mean you yourself? or you the bike? Everything actually seemed pretty smooth up until impact.

Have an appointment at 3:20 with the doc. I'm more and more leaning towards a fracture or break since the swelling hasnt gone down at all.


I agree with your analysis, It was a bad reaction on my part, and truthfully, I'm looking forward to riding again so that I can improve my skills to prevent making the same mistakes I did.


Regarding the balance, It was partily the bike and partially myself. It's hard to tell in the video, but the rear tire kicked out for a moment, and I was hanging off the bike pretty hard. When the rear kicked out, there was a moment of uncertainty where I made the bad decision to engage the brakes.

It's a bit of a shame that my gopro was mounted on the bike and not my helmet. Without knowing the details, It really looks like a clear-cut case of target fixation, though I know it wasnt.

 

[danate]

I can see it looking like target fixation. However the first glaring thing to me from the video was insufficient input with the controls to make the turn. Don't feel bad as it is a very common crash. Get some training though! I make sure to take at least a couple classes every year. I'm taking the Total Control ARC in June. It's amazing how much you can improve from practicing in a parking lot.

Also, your initial thought of entry speed are also correct. While that turn can certainly be taken at a higher speed, the only speed that matters is the one that allows you to safely go through based on your capabilities. For me, having the sun in my eyes like that would definitely slow me down. With better vision, you should be able to see that rough pavement and tighten your turn up early to avoid it. Obviously this gets harder as you add speed.

After watching it a couple more times. It seems like you did see the rough pavement and were decelerating before you even hit it. This would cause a more violent reaction from your bike as your front wheel was more weighted when it hit the rough spot.

 

[RickM]

ignoring the speed factor, i think you turned in too early. iirc that turn tightens up in the second half. I think you also started hard throttle roll on before you could see the exit and then panicked and rolled off.

 

[sckego]

ignoring the speed factor, i think you turned in too early. iirc that turn tightens up in the second half. I think you also started hard throttle roll on before you could see the exit and then panicked and rolled off.

Yup, that's a decreasing radius corner. Looks fast at the entrance, tightens up partway through. Sounds like you were rolling on way early, well before you could even see the apex, while you should have been still slowing...

 

[S1KGSXR600]

Couple other things, you should never "ditch" the bike. Just keep making steering input until you make the turn. If you do that and reach full lean and are still going wide, you can then try to add more body input to make it, but at that point there isn't much more you can do.

What should someone do with the throttle while doing this? How deep can you add countersteer after you've already set your lean angle? If you hold maintenance throttle, can you push it all the way to your knee?

 

[danate]

You can push until you reach maximum lean or dragging hard parts so long as you have maintenance throttle. When the throttle comes off, the bike will undergo weight shift forward and that's when you are in trouble. This is hard for most people especially if they are not comfortable reaching maximum lean. I am in that boat myself and always working on it (hence why I'm taking that class in June). Whenever I lean so far over I drag a peg, it still gets my heart rate cranking and gives me a brief sensation of panic. I hope to practice doing it more in a parking lot to alleviate that feeling.

I try not to think of it in terms of the knee or body position. If you are hanging off, it's possible your knee can be touching the ground before your bike is even at full lean. That whole technique is to reduce necessary lean angle and move the center of gravity to the inside for more effective turning. I don't really hang off so it's not my area of expertise. I will use upper body movement forward and to the inside however to tighten up a turn if need be.

The important thing to take home is if you're going wide, keep looking through the turn, stay on the throttle, and add more steering input. I've found myself in this situation a few times and have always come out fine doing those three steps.

 

[Enchanter]

I can hear your throttle constantly decreasing as you are going wider and wider in the turn. This is the number one reason for single rider crashes.

Mind clarifying a bit? What is the #1 reason, and what is your source? Not attempting to single you out, but I want to ensure that we separate fact and opinion in CA. Thanks.

 

[danate]

In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.

From the Hurt report. Also taught in the CMSP curriculum. This case seems to be the "running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering," or in this case both.

 

[Enchanter]

I completely agree. The portion I quoted was a bit confusing. Seemed like you were pointing to rolling off the throttle as being the cause.

 

[danate]

One more edit because I am making word salad right now. I meant that rolling off the throttle (and braking) was the cause of the OP going wide. Going wide is the #1 cause of single vehicle motorcycle accidents per the Hurt report.

 

[ViperThreat]

Just got back from the doctor, they are saying its either a severe sprain or a break. Waiting on results from xrays to know more later.


Thanks for the input guys, im still trying to come to terms with it all. I'm still fairly certain that my initial breakdown was the cause. Speed was definitely a factor because I wasn't prepared for the uneven surface, but I failed to react as I should have.

That being said, I entered the corner at a speed I felt was appropriate, expecting a smooth surface. It was only when I started to lose traction over the poor surfaces that I began to make poor decisions.

 

[S1KGSXR600]

The question to ask, imo, is why didn't you see it? It's pretty much the same situation I had when a gravel streak on a usually clean corner that matched the color of the road. But really it wasn't any of those excuses it was just poor vision discipline. Target existing on the end of the corner and not in anything in the bikes path.

If the answer for why you didn't see it, is that you were going too fast, then another helpful skill to focus on would be sweeping your vision and making certain that your lane is clear, and then sweeping your eyes up towards turn in point and corner exit

 

[sckego]

That being said, I entered the corner at a speed I felt was appropriate, expecting a smooth surface. It was only when I started to lose traction over the poor surfaces that I began to make poor decisions.

Assuming a smooth surface on San Antonio Valley Road is pretty much a recipe for disaster, I've experienced that as well... http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453582

Hope the x-rays bring good news !

 

[flying_hun]

I completely agree. The portion I quoted was a bit confusing. Seemed like you were pointing to rolling off the throttle as being the cause.

One more edit because I am making word salad right now. I meant that rolling off the throttle (and braking) was the cause of the OP going wide. Going wide is the #1 cause of single vehicle motorcycle accidents per the Hurt report.

Could you be confusing correlation for causation? I agree on going wide, but I've got doubt your attribution of cause.