Guarding the Worst of the Worst

[Kornholio]

Ok...not everyone in prison is the "worst of the worst", but I was failing at coming up with a catchier title.

A recent conversation amongst some of my LEO friends and I kept revolving around the low staffing levels of prisons in this country. Particularly federal prisons and jails. I studied and wrote a paper about this back in college (my degree is in criminal justice) in the aughts and determined that the average wage was something like $10 per hour on the low end (yes...seriously) and something like $18 an hour in the highest paid places like California. Granted, that's the starting wage but still. The crux of the conversation going back to staffing levels for prisons and jails (that don't use county deputies as guards) would likely be a lot higher if the pay were realistically commensurate with the work load and relative degree of danger involved. One of the things I posited in my paper and I still wonder today is why police officers get paid so much more than the people that have to deal with the housing and containment of the people the police only deal with relatively briefly while arresting them.

Long story short, if the pay was the same or at least raised significantly so as to make it fair based on their work load, I think staffing would be a far lower concern. What say BARF? :dunno

 

[Blankpage]

Even more motivation to never go to prison.

 

[Kornholio]

Even more motivation to never go to prison.

Pay has gone up for sure, but it's still no where near what a street officer is paid.

 

[Johndicezx9]

Wasn’t there a prison guard that was outed on one of those highest paid state employees lists that made something like $325k in one year?

 

[CABilly]

Not much sympathy from me, since their union is one of the most politically powerful in the state. They continually lobby on behalf of making [anything] illegal and against loosening rules - basically they are automatically against anything that might lead to fewer people being incarcerated. Fuckem.

 

[Kornholio]

Wasn’t there a prison guard that was outed on one of those highest paid state employees lists that made something like $325k in one year?

Probably like the janitor at BART...one-off situation and seriously not the norm.

Not much sympathy from me, since their union is one of the most politically powerful in the state. They continually lobby on behalf of making [anything] illegal and against loosening rules - basically they are automatically against anything that might lead to fewer people being incarcerated. Fuckem.

Is that CDC or FPB?

 

[aminalmutha]

There are lots of sucky, dangerous jobs that don’t pay well.

 

[Kornholio]

There are lots of sucky, dangerous jobs that don’t pay well.

On the same scale? I'd be curious what you'd equate a guard's job to in terms of pay versus responsibility.

 

[Blankpage]

With so many friends of the administration on the inside perhaps things will improve once they get out.

 

[Climber]

On the same scale? I'd be curious what you'd equate a guard's job to in terms of pay versus responsibility.

What do you mean by 'responsibility'?

What are the elements of that?

 

[kevin 714]

If we stopped jailing people for stupid fuckin shit like weed jail
Guards would be a lot less worked

 

[kingmoochr]

On the same scale? I'd be curious what you'd equate a guard's job to in terms of pay versus responsibility.

Look up paramedic salaries. Same level (limited scope) of practice as Physician Assistants/NP's...not much over minimum wage. And they're not doing the hospital grunt work, they're literally saving your life.

 

[Map8]

I'm not sure about your numbers. $18/hour for a year = $37,440 or a little more than $3,000/month. It looks like correctional officers make more than that while in the academy.

This is from the Pay and Benefits page on the California Department of Corrections website so they are for California state prisons (rather than county or fed).

Pay and Benefits
Pay Ranges
Correctional Officer/Youth Correctional Officer

Range A = $3,788 (During Academy)
Range J = $4,660 (After Academy)
Range K = $7,782 (Top of Pay Scale)

I believe these figures are for monthly pay. Correctional officers also end up working quite a bit of overtime due to the staffing shortages you mentioned. Some state prisons offer bonus pay for various reasons so correctional officers at those prisons would have higher incomes. The benefits package is pretty good as is the union (CCPOA).

I know a few people who have worked for CDCR and its a really difficult job that can take quite toll on the corrections officers.

The pay disparity with local police is due to funding sources. Cities spend a significant portion of their budgets on public safety (police and fire) and those services are essential to attracting and retaining residents and businesses which increase the tax base (income) of the city so there are incentives to provide good salaries and support for public safety at the municipal level. The state pays correctional officers in state prisons. Unable to discuss further to keep this from getting kicked to the Politics forum.



I've read a much bigger issue than prisons are deputy sheriffs in rural Northern California where pay can be $13/hour and a single deputy on patrol might be an hour away from any LEO back up. There is a chronic shortage of deputies and no money to attract more candidates.

 

[bikeama]

Not much sympathy from me, since their union is one of the most politically powerful in the state. They continually lobby on behalf of making [anything] illegal and against loosening rules - basically they are automatically against anything that might lead to fewer people being incarcerated. Fuckem.

This ^^ And their union started the Safety Pension Retirement. I have no question that LEO and Guards are not the easiest jobs but far from the most dangerous. Either job makes the top 10 most dangerous jobs list..

 

[Kornholio]

What do you mean by 'responsibility'?

What are the elements of that?

Safeguarding yourself and all the inmates as well as, technically, the general public be keeping the inmates secured at all times. Being locked into a facility full of people that either have killed and want to kill you as well or those that are considered the literal scum of the earth tends to supercede the responsibilities of someone that scrubs septic tanks for a living...or the like. I'm also referring to the fact that once a police officer dumps you off at the jail, you're now no longer in their care and custody. You become the detention officer's responsibility and that changes things.

If we stopped jailing people for stupid fuckin shit like weed jail
Guards would be a lot less worked

True.

Look up paramedic salaries. Same level (limited scope) of practice as Physician Assistants/NP's...not much over minimum wage. And they're not doing the hospital grunt work, they're literally saving your life.

As I recall, Paramedics are paid better than EMTs and there's a difference in the scope of work there for sure. I wouldn't say that Paramedics are paid as poorly as EMTs are at all.

I'm not sure about your numbers. $18/hour for a year = $37,440 or a little more than $3,000/month. It looks like correctional officers make more than that while in the academy.

This is from the Pay and Benefits page on the California Department of Corrections website so they are for California state prisons (rather than county or fed).

Pay and Benefits
Pay Ranges
Correctional Officer/Youth Correctional Officer

Range A = $3,788 (During Academy)
Range J = $4,660 (After Academy)
Range K = $7,782 (Top of Pay Scale)

I believe these figures are for monthly pay. Correctional officers also end up working quite a bit of overtime due to the staffing shortages you mentioned. Some state prisons offer bonus pay for various reasons so correctional officers at those prisons would have higher incomes. The benefits package is pretty good as is the union (CCPOA).

I know a few people who have worked for CDCR and its a really difficult job that can take quite toll on the corrections officers.

The pay disparity with local police is due to funding sources. Cities spend a significant portion of their budgets on public safety (police and fire) and those services are essential to attracting and retaining residents and businesses which increase the tax base (income) of the city so there are incentives to provide good salaries and support for public safety at the municipal level. The state pays correctional officers in state prisons. Unable to discuss further to keep this from getting kicked to the Politics forum.



I've read a much bigger issue than prisons are deputy sheriffs in rural Northern California where pay can be $13/hour and a single deputy on patrol might be an hour away from any LEO back up. There is a chronic shortage of deputies and no money to attract more candidates.

You missed the part where I said my figures are based on data from the aughts, not current. And yes, I did not factor in overtime either. Ultimately, there is a severe shortage of qualified candidates willing to take on the low starting pay. Not only that, the attrition rate is pretty high too...or at least it used to be. Back in the day when we interviewed some CDC officers at San Quentin, they were saying it's not surprising for a new officer to not last two years before resigning. The academy is one thing, but it's a whole other world when you get inside the walls and you're on your own with convicted felons...many of which who have nothing to lose.

 

[Map8]

You missed the part where I said my figures are based on data from the aughts, not current. And yes, I did not factor in overtime either. Ultimately, there is a severe shortage of qualified candidates willing to take on the low starting pay. Not only that, the attrition rate is pretty high too...or at least it used to be. Back in the day when we interviewed some CDC officers at San Quentin, they were saying it's not surprising for a new officer to not last two years before resigning. The academy is one thing, but it's a whole other world when you get inside the walls and you're on your own with convicted felons...many of which who have nothing to lose.

I didn't miss that. I don't see the point in having a discussion about present day issue without present day numbers. The labor pool changes. Ten years or more, there were tremendous numbers of people applying for the correctional officer positions which affects pay. When it's hard to fill those jobs, pay increases. There are other factors but I'm trying keep politics out this thread.

I agree its a very difficult job in a very difficult environment and there is high turnover. One of my friends quit after a year. He went back to a lower paying job with less benefits that he enjoyed a lot more.

 

[kingmoochr]

As I recall, Paramedics are paid better than EMTs and there's a difference in the scope of work there for sure. I wouldn't say that Paramedics are paid as poorly as EMTs are at all.

You can't respond to 911 calls in the majority of the country without having a paramedic aboard an ambulance. Getting an EMT cert takes 1 semester or less and a basic skills test. Upgrading to paramedic is usually 2 years of school, and a 3-6 month internship, not to mention the same certs required of doctors for advanced cardiac life support, pediatric advanced life support, and prehospital trauma life support. Emts make barely over minimum wage. Paramedics outside a fire department (90% of them) make about 20% more as a medic from emt. The HIGHEST paid private medics in the bay area make $27/hr. In the bay area. They make under $20 in much of the rest of the country.

 

[gixxerjeff]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
If you're saying prison guards have a difficult job and are conceivably underpaid not many of us are going to argue with you....but so???
The death of the middle class happened a long time ago.
Many of us have difficult jobs and are under paid, myself included.
Not sure where you've been but welcome to 2019.

 

[Eldritch]

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ji16.pdf

http://theconversation.com/nordic-prisons-less-crowded-less-punitive-better-staffed-12885

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
If you're saying prison guards have a difficult job and are conceivably underpaid not many of us are going to argue with you....but so???
The death of the middle class happened a long time ago.
Many of us have difficult jobs and are under paid, myself included.
Not sure where you've been but welcome to 2019.

Simply not true. The Middle Class is still alive and kicking in 2019. In San Francisco, it works for Tech and makes about $125k a year for a single guy with no kids.

 

[Kornholio]

I didn't miss that. I don't see the point in having a discussion about present day issue without present day numbers. The labor pool changes. Ten years or more, there were tremendous numbers of people applying for the correctional officer positions which affects pay. When it's hard to fill those jobs, pay increases. There are other factors but I'm trying keep politics out this thread.

I agree its a very difficult job in a very difficult environment and there is high turnover. One of my friends quit after a year. He went back to a lower paying job with less benefits that he enjoyed a lot more.

I disagree. Staffing was low 20 years ago and it's still low today. I guess my real point is why are police officers paid more than prison guards? I'd honestly debate the suggestion that police officers have a more dangerous job than a CDC guard and yet they get around half the pay if not less. What good are "great benefits" or a potential "good retirement" when you get to use any of it since you're either dead, disabled or quit long before you reach retirement age in the first place?

You can't respond to 911 calls in the majority of the country without having a paramedic aboard an ambulance. Getting an EMT cert takes 1 semester or less and a basic skills test. Upgrading to paramedic is usually 2 years of school, and a 3-6 month internship, not to mention the same certs required of doctors for advanced cardiac life support, pediatric advanced life support, and prehospital trauma life support. Emts make barely over minimum wage. Paramedics outside a fire department (90% of them) make about 20% more as a medic from emt. The HIGHEST paid private medics in the bay area make $27/hr. In the bay area. They make under $20 in much of the rest of the country.

I ran a search on Glassdoor and Indeed for average paramedic pay in the Bay Area and based on what you're saying, the people reporting their salaries are either lying or getting paid more than what you're suggesting.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
If you're saying prison guards have a difficult job and are conceivably underpaid not many of us are going to argue with you....but so???
The death of the middle class happened a long time ago.
Many of us have difficult jobs and are under paid, myself included.
Not sure where you've been but welcome to 2019.

I'm not out of touch with the modern era, thanks. The point was to create discussion as to why police officers are paid so much more than cage kickers. It can't all be local tax issues with regards to municipalities since I'm referring to all guard types, not just state guards or local detention officers. Why does the general public feel that these people are worth less per hour than a police officer?