Down In Calaveras

[jwisky]

Today I was riding through Calaveras (my third time) and was trying to practice taking turns at different angles and different speeds. Most of the ride was pretty smooth. A couple turns I took had me feeling a little dissatisfied with the amount of lean and speed I was able to achieve. I tried to adjust for the next sharp turn and found out I adjusted too much.

I took the right turn and realized I wasn't going to be able to make it. I then tried to straighten out and apply the brake slowly, but I was running out of road. I either applied too much brake or my tire gave out on some gravel (could have been a combo of the two). I ended up low siding at a slow speed, but since I always wear my gear I am in decent shape.

The mistakes I know I made:

- Entrance speed was a little quicker than it should have been.
- I started my turn in the middle/inner part of the lane instead of the outer like I usually do. This did not give me room or time to adjust my angle.

I probably could have used the rear brake more to help slow me down and level me out while in the turn, but I have not practiced using the rear brake through a turn. My inexperience got the best of me. I should have tweaked one part of my riding at a time instead of changing so many things at once.

Now I am going to try to find a rearset to replace my brake lever and peg cluster and have the rest checked out for any other damage.

 

[ScottRNelson]

Newer riders trying to increase their speed through turns seems to be a common denominator in crashes. If you don't have the right line through a corner, you'll have to turn sharper to get through it without going off into the weeds - or hillside - or oncoming traffic.

Might I suggest a different approach to learning to get through these corners?

First off, forget about lean angle and go for the perfect line through each turn instead.

I concentrate almost entirely on the line that I'm taking. Enter the turn at the outside edge of the lane, stay out there as long as possible, then bring it to the inside right at the end of the turn. I do this for every turn, even when riding a bicycle. When you enter at the right speed, you can always tighten it up to avoid some hazard. This is a slight variation of the "delayed apex" turn the David L. Hough and many others preach. I don't go back to the outside of the lane at the end as he suggests in his diagrams. The big advantage of doing it this way is that for linked S-turns, I'm exactly where I want to be to enter the next turn. It pays off in a big way on unfamiliar roads, which is the type of road that I most enjoy riding.

I also apply a small amount of throttle once in the turn. This is recommended by Keith Code (A Twist of the Wrist), Lee Parks (Total Control), as well as David L. Hough (Proficient Motorcycling). Normally you're looking for just enough to keep the chain tight at the top rather than any kind of significant acceleration. It took me a while to make this a habit, but now it's totally natural.

The final thing that I do is to get all braking done before the corner starts. You'll find many people on BARF preaching trail braking, and it took me over a year to get completely converted away from trail braking, but the slow-in/fast-out technique works better for me and has made panic reactions in corners an extremely rare event.

Work on your lines as your top priority through every corner. After you can go through Calaveras end to end both ways without a single "oops" moment or mid-corner line correction, then you might start thinking again about cornering speed and lean angle. Maybe.

 

[flying_hun]

Solid advice. ^^^^

Let's talk about what happened just before the crash, when you decided you were going too fast. Where were you looking when you made that decision?

 

[NeilInPacifica]

My goal is to get through turns with as little butt pucker as possible, no braking at all, either before or during the turn, with foot on the pegs not over the brake, slight acceleration, nice line, clean natural feeling through the entire turn. I don't care how slow I'm going, if I can accomplish those things through each turn I feel successful.

 

[Enchanter]

My goal is to get through turns with as little butt pucker as possible, no braking at all, either before or during the turn, with foot on the pegs not over the brake, slight acceleration, nice line, clean natural feeling through the entire turn. I don't care how slow I'm going, if I can accomplish those things through each turn I feel successful.

That's not a bad goal. How do you accomplish this? What specific skills do you use? What can you tell the OP to help them understand how you are able to do this so that they can practice?

 

[NeilInPacifica]

That's not a bad goal. How do you accomplish this? What specific skills do you use? What can you tell the OP to help them understand how you are able to do this so that they can practice?

I think the best way I can describe it is to commit that you will not brake - at all. That forces you to go slow enough into and through the turn that all of these attributes are possible. As your technique improves, your speed will increase, very gradually. But...I am not shooting for speed, just "no butt pucker" and a happy zen feeling.

I'm also watching the vanishing point constantly for any surprises, making sure I can stop for anything. Stage Rd. is a great place to practice this part, really have to be careful for oncoming cars on that narrow road.

 

[bcv_west]

Sorry to hear about the crash, glad you're ok. FWIW, Calaveras Rd is not the best place for riding aggressively, too many cyclists to avoid.

From the sounds of it, you entered the corner too fast, turned in too soon, and ran wide at exit, then dumped the bike while panic braking. Scott's advice is very sound, at this point it's all about the line. I try to focus on: pick a brake point, pick a turn-in point for a late apex with all braking done, set the lean, gently on throttle, and smoooooth through the corner. Doesn't always work out that way, but if that's the goal you'll have margin for trail braking or tightening the turn. You'll be amazed how much faster you'll go when you're not trying to go faster.

 

[jwisky]

Newer riders trying to increase their speed through turns seems to be a common denominator in crashes. If you don't have the right line through a corner, you'll have to turn sharper to get through it without going off into the weeds - or hillside - or oncoming traffic.

Might I suggest a different approach to learning to get through these corners?

First off, forget about lean angle and go for the perfect line through each turn instead.

I concentrate almost entirely on the line that I'm taking. Enter the turn at the outside edge of the lane, stay out there as long as possible, then bring it to the inside right at the end of the turn. I do this for every turn, even when riding a bicycle. When you enter at the right speed, you can always tighten it up to avoid some hazard. This is a slight variation of the "delayed apex" turn the David L. Hough and many others preach. I don't go back to the outside of the lane at the end as he suggests in his diagrams. The big advantage of doing it this way is that for linked S-turns, I'm exactly where I want to be to enter the next turn. It pays off in a big way on unfamiliar roads, which is the type of road that I most enjoy riding.

I also apply a small amount of throttle once in the turn. This is recommended by Keith Code (A Twist of the Wrist), Lee Parks (Total Control), as well as David L. Hough (Proficient Motorcycling). Normally you're looking for just enough to keep the chain tight at the top rather than any kind of significant acceleration. It took me a while to make this a habit, but now it's totally natural.

The final thing that I do is to get all braking done before the corner starts. You'll find many people on BARF preaching trail braking, and it took me over a year to get completely converted away from trail braking, but the slow-in/fast-out technique works better for me and has made panic reactions in corners an extremely rare event.

Work on your lines as your top priority through every corner. After you can go through Calaveras end to end both ways without a single "oops" moment or mid-corner line correction, then you might start thinking again about cornering speed and lean angle. Maybe.

You all are exactly right. This is excellent advice. Usually I ride pretty conservatively, but I kinda just went for it and abandoned my inner voice.

When I was heading in to the turn I was looking through the curve. I was a 1/4 of the way through the turn when I felt my speed too much for me to handle and I could lean enough to make it out. I then looked at the mountain, leveled out, applied brake and went down.

Besides the Motorcycle Safety Course I have not received any formal instruction. These tips are great and will give me something to work on. I have been meaning to go out to some BARF group rides and training sessions so I can learn more and receive advice from fellow riders, but my work schedule sucks and I just ride when I get the chance. I will definitely look up the names you mentioned and see what to practice.

My goal is to get through turns with as little butt pucker as possible, no braking at all, either before or during the turn, with foot on the pegs not over the brake, slight acceleration, nice line, clean natural feeling through the entire turn. I don't care how slow I'm going, if I can accomplish those things through each turn I feel successful.

That sounds like a good goal to have! I know that feeling of going through a turn so smooth and it feels great. The goal for me now is to listen to my gut, and stay in my comfort zone so that I can learn the skills and the mechanics to make me a better rider. Riding this way has given me better satisfaction than trying to ride fast. Getting through a turn with smooth throttle control and a good line will put me in a better position to get home safely. This was the first time I tried something different and I went down. I felt pretty stupid, especially because I knew it was my fault. Don't plan on doing that again haha

 

[flying_hun]

I then looked at the mountain, leveled out, applied brake and went down.

Always look where you want to go. Always.

 

[rodr]

I was a 1/4 of the way through the turn when I felt my speed too much for me to handle and I could lean enough to make it out.

Assuming you meant "could not lean enough"...

How sure are you about that assessment? Common wisdom is that it's usually wrong, that the bike will lean more than you think it can. Was anything scraping the pavement?

 

[jwisky]

Assuming you meant "could not lean enough"...

How sure are you about that assessment? Common wisdom is that it's usually wrong, that the bike will lean more than you think it can. Was anything scraping the pavement?

I'm not totally sure haha If I was experienced I probably could have adjusted and got through the turn, but my speed took me into the turn quicker than I knew how to handle.

 

[ScottRNelson]

I'm not totally sure haha If I was experienced I probably could have adjusted and got through the turn, but my speed took me into the turn quicker than I knew how to handle.

That is the biggest reason why I try to get all of the slowing and/or braking done before the turn starts. If I'm ever still too fast I can safely do something about it. And when I enter one too slow, I'll accelerate through the turn to make up for it.

 

[rodr]

Well, glad you're OK.

Take-aways I would say are: Keep head and eyes up, look through the turn, never give up on a turn.

Also there's this:

If your tire pressures are correct and the tires are in good shape, you can safely lean a Ninja 250 over until the peg feelers start to scrape. It's not a good idea to go much further than that, as the centerstand will drag at really high lean angles and can lever the rear tire right off of the ground.

 

[Maddevill]

Just something to keep in the back of your head. Most modern sport bikes can handle much more than their riders ask of them. Unless you were dragging hard parts, your bike could have most likely made the turn. In effect, you crashed and took your bike with you. Next time, trust the machine and go ahead and lean more. At most you will low side which is little different than the outcome this time.

 

[ScottRNelson]

All of this advice to "lean it further" doesn't really help in a moment of panic. Unless you've done it before you're not likely to choose that course of action in the split second you have to decide how to get out of the danger you've just put yourself in. And there is definitely some speed at which even the best riders can't save it in a turn that they've entered too quickly.

I happen to think that it is more productive to concentrate on how to make sure that it doesn't happen again. :afm199

 

[NeilInPacifica]

Assuming you meant "could not lean enough"...

How sure are you about that assessment? Common wisdom is that it's usually wrong, that the bike will lean more than you think it can. Was anything scraping the pavement?

Shouldn't the riders focus be on counter steering rather than lean angle? Not sure but feels like lean occurs naturally when sufficient counter steering is applied.

 

[rodr]

I happen to think that it is more productive to concentrate on how to make sure that it doesn't happen again. :afm199

I think it's important to do both. Like in the old Westerns, the hero doesn't go around picking fights but does know what to do when he's in one.

Also - in the real world - it doesn't feel very good to be in a group of safe but competent riders and be the one left behind in the twisties. It makes you want to improve your cornering skills.

Shouldn't the riders focus be on counter steering rather than lean angle? Not sure but feels like lean occurs naturally when sufficient counter steering is applied.

It all goes together. Counter steering is how you lean, leaning is how you turn.

 

[KazMan]

hey jwisky, Scott's advice is really good. I typically like to go through corners very similarly without having to use brake. But my years of riding, have always taught me to cover my front brake....just in case.

As you progress with your riding years and experience, hopefully one of the senses you will develop is one of speed in relation to the corner at hand. A technique I employ sometimes is just to ever so lightly one finger the brake or just barely use the rear before entering the corner to get to a comfortable speed. I really consider the brakes speed controls if not having to stop.

That 1 or 2 mph shed of speed may have helped you here. Covering the brakes will help you monitor the speed.

 

[flying_hun]

I think it's important to do both. Like in the old Westerns, the hero doesn't go around picking fights but does know what to do when he's in one.

This. Picking an appropriate entry speed is a very important skill, but if that should go wrong for any reason, having the ability to do something other than run off the road or into the oncoming lane will save your bacon.

 

[T100]

I concentrate almost entirely on the line that I'm taking. Enter the turn at the outside edge of the lane, stay out there as long as possible, then bring it to the inside right at the end of the turn. I do this for every turn, even when riding a bicycle. When you enter at the right speed, you can always tighten it up to avoid some hazard. This is a slight variation of the "delayed apex" turn the David L. Hough and many others preach. I don't go back to the outside of the lane at the end as he suggests in his diagrams. The big advantage of doing it this way is that for linked S-turns, I'm exactly where I want to be to enter the next turn. It pays off in a big way on unfamiliar roads, which is the type of road that I most enjoy riding.

I also apply a small amount of throttle once in the turn. This is recommended by Keith Code (A Twist of the Wrist), Lee Parks (Total Control), as well as David L. Hough (Proficient Motorcycling). Normally you're looking for just enough to keep the chain tight at the top rather than any kind of significant acceleration. It took me a while to make this a habit, but now it's totally natural.

The final thing that I do is to get all braking done before the corner starts. You'll find many people on BARF preaching trail braking, and it took me over a year to get completely converted away from trail braking, but the slow-in/fast-out technique works better for me and has made panic reactions in corners an extremely rare event.

Work on your lines as your top priority through every corner. After you can go through Calaveras end to end both ways without a single "oops" moment or mid-corner line correction, then you might start thinking again about cornering speed and lean angle.

Nice post, good stuff to think about.:thumbup