Crash while avoiding cut off on 101 lanesplitting

[zixaq]

Based on your original diagram and description, I think the right response would have been to stay in the split and brake hard. That said,

That's a really dangerous position, and try to avoid it as much as possible. If there's less than a car length or so between them, I try to let the rearmost car catch up and then split between them. If there's more space, I'll accelerate and get left quickly to minimize my time in the forward car's blind spot.

If there's a gap, assume they WILL try to change lanes. Hell, sometimes they'll try even when there's no gap.

 

[tzrider]

Based on your original diagram and description, I think the right response would have been to stay in the split and brake hard. That said,

It's possible that was the best available option, though based on her closing speed and proximity to the white car, she may not have had time to avoid contact by braking alone. As a rule, I try to avoid creating a situation where I'm "splitting backwards," or cars on either side of me are moving faster than I am while I'm in the split.

 

[Honey Badger]

jjgirl, you may have answered this at some point in the thread, but I'm curious, did the car that cut you off cause the car that you were next to to have to stomp on their brakes?

I ask for this simple reason - if I'm going too fast to match the speed of at least one of the cars I am next to, even under fairly hard braking, then I am going to fast. What that threshold is for you is going to vary a lot on skill and bike.

 

[Pluot]

I would like to start off by saying that I have been reading the replies to my thread as best I can, but I have not been able to read each reply in detail. I am trying to make more time to do so, and fully intend to. But if I don't respond to your reply, please know that I am not ignoring your input. With that said;

jjgirl, you may have answered this at some point in the thread, but I'm curious, did the car that cut you off cause the car that you were next to to have to stomp on their brakes?

I ask for this simple reason - if I'm going too fast to match the speed of at least one of the cars I am next to, even under fairly hard braking, then I am going to fast. What that threshold is for you is going to vary a lot on skill and bike.

I'm not completely sure, but that was the impression I was under (that the car on the left stomped on his brakes too, but it could be because I started to swerve in front of him to go around the car in front). That's why I stated I didn't feel like I had enough room to fill the space in front of the car to the left of me; I would have been cutting the car to the left of me off. My guess is that I was probably 5mph-10mph too fast to match the car to the left of me? I was probably about my motorcycle's length ahead of him.

The cars in both lanes behind me were stopped maybe 30 feet behind me. (I'm not sure if this is relevant information, but just in case it is. I also learned that the average stop at 20mph hard braking, you travel about 17 feet.)

It is true that I was speeding up at that point when I got cut off; I didn't want to ride side to side next to the car on the left so I was trying to accelerate to get in a position to rejoin the carpool lane. It seems like most of the advice suggests it would have been wiser to just ride next to the car on the left.

Based on your original diagram and description, I think the right response would have been to stay in the split and brake hard. That said,

That's a really dangerous position, and try to avoid it as much as possible. If there's less than a car length or so between them, I try to let the rearmost car catch up and then split between them. If there's more space, I'll accelerate and get left quickly to minimize my time in the forward car's blind spot.

If there's a gap, assume they WILL try to change lanes. Hell, sometimes they'll try even when there's no gap.

Isn't the rearmost car in front of me?

I was trying to accelerate and get into the left quickly and failed. I guess I got stuck in the blind spot.

With that said, I have had an experience a couple years ago, listening to my friend who has been riding for ten years. She is more 'experienced.' I told her the speed/delta I generally lane split at, and she told me that she lane split faster. I decided to give it a try the very same day after going on a ride with her; horrible, horrible idea to go faster. The delta she suggested was probably about 25-30 above traffic. I went about 45 in 15-20 mph traffic, best guess. Very stupid of me, but I ended up rear ending a truck on 280. The lane was wide and 280 had visibility very far back for car mirrors, I figured the cars could see me coming from 1/4 mile behind me; I had turned around and checked myself. It was clear that the driver did not check his/her mirror as I came up, but I was stupid to go so fast lane splitting. The reason I bring this incident up is to mention that at that time, I hard braked and went in a straight line. I did lock up my rear tire, but was able to stop. I gently bumped into the truck's bumper at sub 5mph and dropped my bike. So my point is, I have had experience braking in a straight line lane splitting, and also from that experience I have learned not to speed while lane splitting. This time around, I don't feel like I was speeding, but rather put myself in a bad position. I also did not feel that I would have been able to stop my bike from hitting the car in front of me straight braking, so that's why I chose to swerve first instead. From my perspective, the car that changed lanes in front of me was VERY, very close to me.

 

[KazMan]

Sorry, I have lurked this thread from the beginning.

I would strongly suggest a day with Brok McAllister or Rich Oliver, who will teach to you the art of sliding a motorcycle. I only mention this because in your last example, you are correct that skidding your bike will send you in a straight line, however, you can obtain a skill that will allow you to skid your bike with the rear end pointed in a direction and when you let off the rear brake, your motorcycle will head in that direction.

Will you be able to learn this in one training. Absolutely not, but you will be in a better environment to learn other aspects of your motorcycle, it's handling, and your skillset to manipulate perhaps a better outcome. I personally make it a point to do a couple days with Brok or Rich or both each year so that I can work on my riding skills. I mention these 2 because they have bikes available, and they teach sliding a motorcycle.

Ken Hill's course is great as well, but he teaches mainly managing traction which does not fully expose change of direction with a skid.

 

[tzrider]

Ken Hill's course is great as well, but he teaches mainly managing traction which does not fully expose change of direction with a skid.

I would suggest that learning to change direction with a skid is far from the highest priority here.

 

[KazMan]

I agree, but she mentioned skid and eluded to not wanting to do that anymore. It is something that should not be removed from the arsenal to protect ourselves, and she has been very good at taking notes of what's written.

Rather than tell her, Yes do not skid, it was a suggestion that at some point in her riding career, she should seek another genre to enhance her primary which is a currently commuting on street.

 

[tzrider]

We could think of the skill set as having two broad areas:

1. The stuff we do to avoid emergencies and
2. The stuff we do to deal with emergencies

There's been a lot of good stuff about #1 and we are now squarely in #2. Ultimately, a rider needs to be good at both.

The Superbike School did a study about 20 years ago with 50 riders, ranging in skill from novice to nationally ranked roadracers. They set up a panic stop drill and over-inflated the rear tire. Riders were asked to stop as fast as they could, using both brakes when given a signal.

Every rider locked the rear (because of the set-up) and every rider let go of both brakes in response. It seemed that without preparing for the scenario, a rear lockup in a surprise situation confused riders enough to make them let go of both brakes.

I'm not a fan of jumping on the rear brake as a first response to a surprise. Depending on the bike, I may begin to apply the rear after getting on the front. The priority on pavement (for me) is to maximize my front braking and concentrate on traction at that end.

I've drilled braking hard with both brakes, locking the rear and staying on the front while backing off on the rear. I can do it when I anticipate it, but am not so sure about a true emergency.

A scenario where I'd yaw the bike out on a locked rear while lane splitting seems pretty remote. Recover a sudden rear skid? Sure.

 

[KazMan]

Then I guess it can't be done.

 

[tzrider]

Then I guess it can't be done.

Not saying it can't, but of all the things Caroline could do in the short term to increase her safety margin, I don't rank this very highly.

 

[KazMan]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe that a rider, in particular someone who has only ridden street, should have the opportunity to experience in a controlled environment what happens when a motorcycle does not have ideal traction and how much control you still can have in that condition. This understanding will also enhance your reactions and control of motorcycle in an asphalt environment.

This training actually gives you a chance to learn feel for the rear brake, which subsequently would help you not lock of the rear and/or understand when you did and how you can ease up without inducing further issues. As proven by your example of 20+ years ago.

All I am doing is offering a suggestion based on personal experience.

 

[tzrider]

To be clear, I don't disagree with this:

Then we will have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe that a rider, in particular someone who has only ridden street, should have the opportunity to experience in a controlled environment what happens when a motorcycle does not have ideal traction and how much control you still can have in that condition. This understanding will also enhance your reactions and control of motorcycle in an asphalt environment.

This is the point I wouldn't prioritize:

Ken Hill's course is great as well, but he teaches mainly managing traction which does not fully expose change of direction with a skid.

I'd propose that the order of priority is:

1. Visual skills
2. discipline to keep speed under control
3. Positioning
4. Very quick and accurate steering
5. Hard braking, while maintaining traction
6. Getting familiar with a skid, how to recover, understanding how it compromises direction control

You might have a different take on the above, but if one can't change everything instantly, that's the order I'd change things in for most immediate benefit.

 

[KazMan]

Nope, I agree with your important items. I just believe that if a rider can get the chance to do some dirt skills, everyone of those points get enhanced, and maybe just a bit easier to perform.

Not sure what you're point is about wouldn't prioritize, but having taken everyone's dirt days courses that I listed, sliding drills are not really one of Ken's focuses.

Anywhooo...we have gone pretty far down the alley and probably should get back on the main road.

 

[CABilly]

Nice! I did a drawing of my crash following your paint example.

Glad you're ok. It's been said, but a good rule to keep for yourself is to either fill gaps or avoid them. Cagers will irrationally and suddenly dive into an open gap in the hopes of gaining a single car length advantage for their commute. You just have to expect it.

As soon as you split up to a gap, move I to it and occupy it on the left track of e lane. That'll give you a buffer and better case against someone if they encroach into your space.

Btw, did the driver of the car not stop? :thumbdown

 

[Pluot]

Glad you're ok. It's been said, but a good rule to keep for yourself is to either fill gaps or avoid them. Cagers will irrationally and suddenly dive into an open gap in the hopes of gaining a single car length advantage for their commute. You just have to expect it.

As soon as you split up to a gap, move I to it and occupy it on the left track of e lane. That'll give you a buffer and better case against someone if they encroach into your space.

Btw, did the driver of the car not stop? :thumbdown

No, the driver who cut me off had driven off as far as he could, maybe 100 ft ahead. Pretty sure he knew why I went down.

Ironically today, I moved into a gap on the 101 to let a faster rider pass me; I occupied the lane right away - mid lane/slightly to the left side. Promptly, a medium sized truck cut two lanes and actually came straight into my lane next to me. The guy was busy talking to his passenger. He finally looked out the window and noticed me as I had pulled over onto the shoulder. I did not honk; I just pulled over quietly. The rider I let pass, however, proceeded to stop in front of me to say some words to the truck.

Even fully occupying a space doesn't seem to help sometimes.

 

[CABilly]

No, the driver who cut me off had driven off as far as he could, maybe 100 ft ahead. Pretty sure he knew why I went down.

Ironically today, I moved into a gap on the 101 to let a faster rider pass me; I occupied the lane right away - mid lane/slightly to the left side. Promptly, a medium sized truck cut two lanes and actually came straight into my lane next to me. The guy was busy talking to his passenger. He finally looked out the window and noticed me as I had pulled over onto the shoulder. I did not honk; I just pulled over quietly. The rider I let pass, however, proceeded to stop in front of me to say some words to the truck.

Even fully occupying a space doesn't seem to help sometimes.

Not from people who don't look, but it gives YOU space, time, and options when someone encroaches into your space. You had enough time to move to the shoulder, so you were in the right place. Well done :thumbup

Time for a GoPro? Sucks ass that shit burger didn't stop :mad

 

[tzrider]

Even fully occupying a space doesn't seem to help sometimes.

Had you been closer to the right edge of the lane would this have been more "exciting?"

Your bike didn't end up on the ground today and it sounds like you didn't have to do anything extraordinary. I'd call it a win.

 

[Pluot]

Had you been closer to the right edge of the lane would this have been more "exciting?"

Your bike didn't end up on the ground today and it sounds like you didn't have to do anything extraordinary. I'd call it a win.

Oh I wasn't complaining. Was just responding to previous post since he had mentioned filling up the gap, and that's exactly what I did. I suppose coincidentally would have been the appropriate word choice over ironically.

Btw, I do not have a penchant for adrenaline rushes of any kind. I'm a bit of a scaredy cat, half the time what other riders think is fun or exciting, I think is scary.

 

[Pluot]

The slow-your-roll video by KazMan is a great reference on what speed delta feels like. Ride next to a row of parked cars. Relative to the parked cars, your speed on the speedometer is the delta. Ride at 10 mph, 15 mph, 20 mph, 25 mph, see what it feels like. Then, imagine if you have time to react if one of them started to pull into your path. Moving traffic is a more dynamic situation.

After watching the video and compared to how I split this morning, I realized that my speed delta while splitting is fairly modest - less than 15 mph most of the time. :ride

I just watched the video again; my delta is 10-15 average, 20 max if I'm feeling bold. Never as fast at 25 mph.

 

[Enchanter]

I just watched the video again; my delta is 10-15 average, 20 max if I'm feeling bold. Never as fast at 25 mph.

At 20mph, we are moving at approximately 29 feet per second. Most people take about 0.75 seconds to perceive a problem, and another 0.75 seconds to react.

So...we travel approximately 45 feet before doing anything to avoid the car that has that has begun to cut us off.

Slower is safer.