Cornering and going wide

[kelso]

Last Saturday I took a ride up to Placerville. On my way back there was downward curve (right) where I couldn't see around. I was in the fast lane going about 75 and slowed down to *I think* about 60mph. I would've preferred to be in the inner lanes, but couldn't get over to the left. The technique I was taught was to slow down, look, press, and roll gradually until out of the turn. While in the turn, I applied light acceleration following my lean, but noticed that I was heading wide into the rail. I was continuing to increase my lean slowly, but was still going wide. Should I have counter steered more aggressively to increase my lean angle? I was afraid to use my brakes while in the turn as I didn't want to upright my bike or lock up the wheels.

What should I have done in that scenario? What was I doing wrong?
Any advice please--Thanks!

 

[afm199]

The light acceleration pushed you out. It's not necessarily a good technique at all. Taking away lean angle and adding throttle is.

There's no problem using your brakes in a lean as long as you use them lightly and gradually.

 

[Gravisman]

Rolling the throttle is what you do when you know you’re on the right line. If you’re not on the correct line, e.g. running wide, you shouldn’t be rolling on the throttle. Ideally, you want to wait until you know you’re on the right line before beginning to roll on, but if you find yourself in a situation where you’re rolling the throttle through a turn and running wide, you’ll have to give up some throttle so you can steer into the correct line. Adding throttle and lean at the same time is a no-no.

 

[DataDan]

Good question. And welcome to BARF.

You'll eventually get comprehensive answers from riders who are better able to advise you than I. But I do want to briefly address two factors: Using the brake in a turn, and not getting into that kind of situation to begin with.

Don't be afraid to use the brake in a turn. Your tires have plenty of grip, and smooth application of front brake while adding lean angle isn't going to overpower them. I recommend that you practice doing that to gain confidence. Approaching a turn, on the brake, begin to lean (by pressing on the inside bar) AS you gradually release the brake. This is called "trail braking" (you're trailing off of the brake as you add lean angle) and some riders do it on every turn. I'm not one who does, but it's a valuable skill to have.

If I correctly understand what you experienced on Saturday, you could have kept the brake on as you leaned and delayed transition to the gas until you were comfortable with your line and speed for getting through safely.

A technique I really like for reading a curve before committing to line and speed is The Vanishing Point (link is to my 2008 BARF thread). Basically, it uses a visual cue to recognize that you haven't yet reached the tightest spot of a blind curve, which tells you to continue to slow. Another cue tells you to get back on the gas when you're past the tightest spot. Read the thread and study the pictures, then try the technique next time you ride.

 

[thepretender]

What other have suggested also look where you want to go and not where you are going. Many time in this situation if you snap your head to where you want to go everything becomes clear and easy you automatically turn more lean more and make the turn effortlessly. The bike will always follow the eyes.

 

[ScottRNelson]

When I have to use brakes in a turn I try to keep a balance between front and rear. By balance, I don't mean 50-50, but more like 2/3 front and 1/3 rear brake. For me, that's the best way to slow down without compromising traction. If you're only leaned over about 30 degrees, you still have about half of your traction available for braking. Maybe the bikes I have ridden in the past decade or two don't tend to stand up while braking in a turn, because I haven't noticed that as an issue. Or maybe I just automatically correct for it or something.

I try to keep light throttle in turns, but headed downhill sometimes I can't do that and need to be using the brakes instead.

You didn't state how you resolved this issue. I always have an intended line through a turn and as soon as I'm even six inches wide of that line I start doing things to tighten it up. Sometimes that involves more lean angle and sometimes it means using the brakes to slow down more. Recognizing the issue early and correcting for it works much better than having to take drastic action after you're way off line.

So what road were you on when this happened? I used to live in Folsom, so I I've probably ridden every interesting road heading west out of Placerville.

 

[Maddevill]

First off, +1 to all the advice above. Was this on the freeway or a small road? You mentioned multiple lanes.
Try to remember this, if you ever find yourself running wide and aren't sure you can make it, TRY ANYWAY. In almost all cases the BIKE can make the corner unless you're dragging hard parts. Get your eyes UP, relax your arms and just countersteer more. If this was on the freeway, I think you need to do a lot more practicing.

Mad

 

[Enchanter]

Last Saturday I took a ride up to Placerville. On my way back there was downward curve (right) where I couldn't see around. I was in the fast lane going about 75 and slowed down to *I think* about 60mph. I would've preferred to be in the inner lanes, but couldn't get over to the left. The technique I was taught was to slow down, look, press, and roll gradually until out of the turn. While in the turn, I applied light acceleration following my lean, but noticed that I was heading wide into the rail. I was continuing to increase my lean slowly, but was still going wide. Should I have counter steered more aggressively to increase my lean angle? I was afraid to use my brakes while in the turn as I didn't want to upright my bike or lock up the wheels.

What should I have done in that scenario? What was I doing wrong?
Any advice please--Thanks!

Yes.

There is other good advice in this thread, but countersteering is the primary solution to your problem.

Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

 

[motomania2007]

Yup 100% on Enchanter's advice.

Others have good points as well.

 

[Biga]

Trail braking until you see the apex of the turn and where you also see the exit.
Up to this point be on the breaks or just maintain the throttle and only give more throttle when you are at the apex where you see the exit of the turn.
I guess that's they are called controls? Because if you are not on the brakes or on the throttle you're not in control...
Counter steering you learned how to do it when you learned how to ride a bicycle and it happen naturally.
I think the point that I would like to congratulate you, it that you never gave up on the turn!!! Really, congrats!!! that's when things go bad, when you stop believing...

 

[flying_hun]

A technique I really like for reading a curve before committing to line and speed is The Vanishing Point (link is to my 2008 BARF thread). Basically, it uses a visual cue to recognize that you haven't yet reached the tightest spot of a blind curve, which tells you to continue to slow. Another cue tells you to get back on the gas when you're past the tightest spot. Read the thread and study the pictures, then try the technique next time you ride.

Another fan of the vanishing point here. That might have prevented the situation. Once you're in the situation, Enchanter's advice is correct.

 

[stangmx13]

downhill + light acceleration == more acceleration. adding speed while not being comfortable with the line is your primary mistake.

Rolling the throttle is what you do when you know you’re on the right line. If you’re not on the correct line, e.g. running wide, you shouldn’t be rolling on the throttle. Ideally, you want to wait until you know you’re on the right line before beginning to roll on, but if you find yourself in a situation where you’re rolling the throttle through a turn and running wide, you’ll have to give up some throttle so you can steer into the correct line. Adding throttle and lean at the same time is a no-no.

this

Yes.

There is other good advice in this thread, but countersteering is the primary solution to your problem.

Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

doing this without addressing speed is misguided. adding lean angle while also adding speed is one of the riskiest things a rider can do. not adding speed is far safer than adding lean angle.

of course, this depends on the situation and some information we are missing. if the rider never attained a turning radius that would make the corner, more counter steering is absolutely necessary (or more brake before the turn). if the rider was on the correct turning radius and ruined it with acceleration, the safest fix is to not add that acceleration. I read the OP as the latter.

 

[Enchanter]

He's a new rider, and as such I made the assumption that he is displaying typical new rider issues: Lack of head turn and lack of effective countersteering. Not being comfortable with his line is a symptom of not looking through the turn.

I italicized comfortable because it isn't an effective reference for new / unskilled riders. BARF is full of crashes of riders that were comfortable right up until the loss of control / impact.

At worst, it may have been incomplete advice. Misguided? Not at all.

 

[Pushrod]

He doesn't say but I wonder if there wasn't some target fixation working on him in the curve. . .

 

[tzrider]

Yes.

There is other good advice in this thread, but countersteering is the primary solution to your problem.

Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

The above addresses two key things:

1. Knowing the shape of the turn and where you are
2. Being able to establish the right line

Looking into the turn before you steer lets you see the nature of the turn, ensure your speed is right and establish a target to steer towards. Countersteering sets the lean angle and line.

Rolling the throttle is what you do when you know you’re on the right line. If you’re not on the correct line, e.g. running wide, you shouldn’t be rolling on the throttle. Ideally, you want to wait until you know you’re on the right line before beginning to roll on, but if you find yourself in a situation where you’re rolling the throttle through a turn and running wide, you’ll have to give up some throttle so you can steer into the correct line. Adding throttle and lean at the same time is a no-no.

A nugget of gold here.

One of the benefits of rolling on the throttle is that it stabilizes the bike. A stable bike tends to hold its lean angle and line. If we begin the roll-on before lean and line are set, the bike will hold that line (running wide).

Thinking back on it, do you think that at the time you rolled on the gas you already saw the shape of the turn and the line you were on, or were you a little unsure?

 

[kelso]

Yes.
Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

I've been playing the scenario in my head for the past 3 days. I think your right, in going back and looking on Google Maps street view, I think I wasn't looking as far into the turn as I should've. I remember not seeing an exit, and got fearful when I was starting to go wide. At that point *I think* started looking at the railing. I seem to have more recall of the railing and the small hill below rather than the exit. LoL I'm not sure about leaning on the handlebar as opposed to pushing. This is something I'll definitely watch for in the future!

Rolling the throttle is what you do when you know you’re on the right line. If you’re not on the correct line, e.g. running wide, you shouldn’t be rolling on the throttle. Ideally, you want to wait until you know you’re on the right line before beginning to roll on, but if you find yourself in a situation where you’re rolling the throttle through a turn and running wide, you’ll have to give up some throttle so you can steer into the correct line. Adding throttle and lean at the same time is a no-no.

I think your right, once I was in the corner, I don't remember letting off the throttle and slowing down. At least not at first.

Don't be afraid to use the brake in a turn. Your tires have plenty of grip, and smooth application of front brake while adding lean angle isn't going to overpower them. I recommend that you practice doing that to gain confidence. Approaching a turn, on the brake, begin to lean (by pressing on the inside bar) AS you gradually release the brake. This is called "trail braking" (you're trailing off of the brake as you add lean angle) and some riders do it on every turn. I'm not one who does, but it's a valuable skill to have.

If I correctly understand what you experienced on Saturday, you could have kept the brake on as you leaned and delayed transition to the gas until you were comfortable with your line and speed for getting through safely.

A technique I really like for reading a curve before committing to line and speed is The Vanishing Point (link is to my 2008 BARF thread). Basically, it uses a visual cue to recognize that you haven't yet reached the tightest spot of a blind curve, which tells you to continue to slow. Another cue tells you to get back on the gas when you're past the tightest spot. Read the thread and study the pictures, then try the technique next time you ride.

I'll read the thread and also do some searching on youtube for Trail braking & the Vanishing Point. Thank you!

I try to keep light throttle in turns, but headed downhill sometimes I can't do that and need to be using the brakes instead.

You didn't state how you resolved this issue. I always have an intended line through a turn and as soon as I'm even six inches wide of that line I start doing things to tighten it up. Sometimes that involves more lean angle and sometimes it means using the brakes to slow down more. Recognizing the issue early and correcting for it works much better than having to take drastic action after you're way off line.

So what road were you on when this happened? I used to live in Folsom, so I I've probably ridden every interesting road heading west out of Placerville.

I think I got spooked by the view and the railing and became fixated. Also, I was applying throttle and didn't consider that the decline would increase speed.

I was on 50 heading west, I think I was here: https://goo.gl/maps/N2yGvZ3TUPLEn8kN8 It looks right. I recently moved out here so I was exploring. In looking back on Google streetview, I feel like an idiot given the grade and the angle. I should've been able to make that corner without a problem. I had no problems going east.

I got out of it, when I looked hard to the right and saw a line out of the corner. By that time I was pretty much through the corner although very close the line.

If this was on the freeway, I think you need to do a lot more practicing.

Your right! I just recently started going on the freeway. Before Saturday I was limiting myself to the area east of Elk Grove, Florin & Sacramento.

downhill + light acceleration == more acceleration. adding speed while not being comfortable with the line is your primary mistake.

this

doing this without addressing speed is misguided. adding lean angle while also adding speed is one of the riskiest things a rider can do. not adding speed is far safer than adding lean angle.

of course, this depends on the situation and some information we are missing. if the rider never attained a turning radius that would make the corner, more counter steering is absolutely necessary (or more brake before the turn). if the rider was on the correct turning radius and ruined it with acceleration, the safest fix is to not add that acceleration. I read the OP as the latter.

Your right, I failed to take into account that the hill would provide additional speed. Also, adding speed while increasing angle. I think I ruined it by keeping an open throttle and becoming distracted.

He doesn't say but I wonder if there wasn't some target fixation working on him in the curve. . .

I think you're right. In thinking about it and reviewing google, I believe I became fixated on the view and eventually the railing.

The above addresses two key things:

1. Knowing the shape of the turn and where you are
2. Being able to establish the right line

Looking into the turn before you steer lets you see the nature of the turn, ensure your speed is right and establish a target to steer towards. Countersteering sets the lean angle and line.


A nugget of gold here.

One of the benefits of rolling on the throttle is that it stabilizes the bike. A stable bike tends to hold its lean angle and line. If we begin the roll-on before lean and line are set, the bike will hold that line (running wide).

Thinking back on it, do you think that at the time you rolled on the gas you already saw the shape of the turn and the line you were on, or were you a little unsure?

Initially, I saw the shape of the turn but became unsure as I moved.



Thank you All! It's really appreciated. You've definitely given me things to think about. :thumbup

 

[ScottRNelson]

I was on 50 heading west, I think I was here: https://goo.gl/maps/N2yGvZ3TUPLEn8kN8 It looks right. I recently moved out here so I was exploring. In looking back on Google streetview, I feel like an idiot given the grade and the angle. I should've been able to make that corner without a problem. I had no problems going east.

Okay, you had a relatively straight run on Highway 50 followed by a couple of turns that were a bit tighter than what you had been on. And it's always easier going uphill than downhill.

That turn could have been handled with more lean angle and looking through the turn at the speed you were going, but the correct thing to do for someone of your experience is to pay attention to the 7% grade warning signs and slow back down to the speed limit for the steep part. There wasn't a speed warning sign there, because a normal car can easily take that turn at the speed limit.

You just need more experience judging corners and you ALWAYS want to err on the side of entering one too slowly rather than too fast. Fortunately there are a lot of roads in the area that can help you work on your cornering speed judging skills. Keep working at it and you'll get it. :cool

 

[MapleRoad]

Props to the OP for reading with an open mind, thinking about what was said, and committing to learning, adapting, and improving.

 

[kelso]

No problems this time. Not even a sweat. I failed to look. LoL
Thanks everyone!

 

[Holeshot]

Yes.

There is other good advice in this thread, but countersteering is the primary solution to your problem.

Given your description of the event, I suspect that two things were happening here: 1) you weren't looking as far though the turn as you could / should have been, and 2) that you were attempting to (counter)steer by leaning on the handlebar rather than just pressing it forward.

TIm's got good advice. Two more things that are important:

1. Radius = MPH. IOW, the quicker you are traveling, the larger a radius your corner will have. If that does not match the radius of the paved corner, you'll end up in the dirt. In the event you are having troubling keeping the bike on the intended path, you MUST reduce speed. A rolloff may even be enough, but light braking is optimum.

Adding throttle/ speed opens up your radius and pushes your bike to the outside of the corner. A general rule of thumb is: have your bike pointed before adding increasing throttle.

2. Be aware of your weight on your handlebars. Downhill corners where braking is taking place may/ will have you putting too much weight on your handlebars to keep your body from moving forward over the tank/ gauges. The natural inclination to resist this comes from your elbows and shoulders which then, lock themselves out to hold your body upright. The problem with locked arms/ elbows is they do not allow the bike to steer for the corner (into the corner) as your inside arm resists the tire steering into the corner. While this will happen inevitably, be conscious about resisting the motorcycle from behaving naturally. Practice using your legs (thighs) and abdominals to take the brunt of the weight shift forward and off your arms as much as you can. With stiff arms/ wrists/ elbows, you'll fight the bike into the corner.

Decreasing radius downhill turns are some of the hardest corners to ride, anywhere. Bravo on making it out of a sticky situation. FWIW, "Brakes" means front brakes in my post.