Body position as a necessity

[Spencerjo]

Hi folks,

Firstly, the 'braking in corners' thread helped me a lot. Thanks!

I'm back with another rant / question: what are people's habits with respect to body position on a spirited (but public roads) ride? Shifting a little? Looking around the bars or even hanging off for every turn? Staying one-with-the-seat and using countersteering only? I'd love to learn what people prefer / what your experience has been.

-Context-
After reading every scrap I could find on cornering, the gem that really lit up my riding was learning that gentle front braking into and even during corners can settle the chassis and tighten radius, respectively. Trying this very slowly and in controlled situations helped me to see its effectiveness, and this gave me the confidence to increase my crawl-like entry speeds a bit as I discovered I could safely correct if they were a bit hot or if I saw a mid-corner hazard.

All that said, I still don't have a great feel for what corner requires what level of ... effort? Let me put that another way. If I stay one-with-the-bike, straight up, centered, and perpendicular, I can lean to X angle before starting to be concerned about traction. If I use my body, the more I shift body weight and hang off the bike, the more I can turn without the bike leaning all the way to X. In fact, If I drag a knee AND lean the bike to angle X, I am theoretically getting the *tightest* turning circle I can, for a given speed, camber, etc. This would suggest that NOT hanging off the bike means I can't turn as much / as safely (someone please tell me if this is wrong).

This understanding has led me to believe that, for the tighter turns, I should really emphasize body position, and get as much of my turning done with where I put my weight, and only use countersteering to initiate the turn or to help.

BUT - When I ride with experienced riders of cruisers / touring bikes, I don't see them use body position much. They make the same turns as I do at the same speeds, but it seems almost like they are exclusively countersteering. I'm afraid of this for two reasons:
1) Flexibility: if I need more lean at a moments notice, it's easy to add if the bike is relatively straight up and it's only my body that's leaning - I just bring the bike over to me. If the bike is already leaned way over and my body is straight, I can only add as much lean as the bike can take. I can try to hold the bike at that angle and move my body, but that seems dodgy and liable to upset the chassis, especially if I'm in an emergency situation.
2) If my understanding above is correct, I can never turn as tightly without using my body, and therefore I should always be ready to.

Still, these other riders don't seem to have these issues. The least of my concerns is that I look like an idiot dragging a knee on what ends up being a downright lazy turn, but I'd also like to know what I'm missing in terms of better understanding the capabilities of my bike and building my confidence.

What do people think? Thanks!

 

[afm199]

Ehh. Lots of people use body position because it helps the turning process, and makes it safer. Some use it because they want to look cool.

Generally speaking, your speed should dictate the application. If you're going thirty in a 50 mph corner, hanging off doesn't accomplish much. If you're going 60 in a 30 mph corner, it does.

On the street I hang off a bit for most corners ( a bit ) because I like to stay in the habit. I move my butt an inch or two and stick my knee out a bit. I tilt my upper body into the corner. It's not necessary often.

If you want to learn the capability of your bike, go to the track. The street is the wrong place for that.

 

[Maddevill]

Iv'e commented on this before. Before I started racing I hung off everywhere, on any bike. Cruiser with ape hangers? I looked like Marc Marquez.
Now, after 13 years racing and 40 years riding, I hardly ever hang off on the street. And my normal pace is pretty fast. I learned that with high visual horizon and good line selection along with good decision making I just don't need to be hanging off at anything but insane street speeds. The only limits I use now is if any hard parts are dragging.

Mad

 

[Honey Badger]

I choose to "hang off" on the street, but not because I "need" it.

I do it partially because, should I come around a corner and find something unexpected, I am already carrying less lean angle, and it's easier to push the bike up to nearly fully upright. This has come in handy a time or two when I needed to emergency brake or found a pile of gravel in my lane.

I also do it because, to put it simply, I want to work the same muscle groups and habits that I want to develop/use on the track. Street rides are, for me, primarily a time to work on a skill set at a much slower pace while enjoying the scenery and company a bit.

Do I need to hang off on the pace I'm usually carrying on the street? No. Do I pretty much all the time? Yes, for the above mentioned reasons.

 

[stangmx13]

don't forget, its radius and speed that dictate lean angle. there will be plenty of tight turns that require very little lean angle and long ones that require tons.

for me, hanging off was always just like braking and counter steering - I adjust how much based on the corner, my speed, my focus, and my skills at the time. if I get in hot to a corner (accidentally or not), fuck yes im hanging off as much as possible. if the corner is slow and long, ill probably just barely shift my butt and head over.

 

[Junkie]

I don't hang off much on the street. My trackbike is a supermoto so I don't typically hang off of it either.

 

[raymond_h2002]

I'll shift my weight and upper body to retain muscle memory for track riding, similar to Honeybadger. I never go full out track body position, though.

On the track, you can have more faith in the road being where you expect it and it being clear of obstacles, and so you can commit yourself to cornering and performance by lowering your upper body and head. One side effect of this is that it significantly reduces how far ahead you can see. I can't have that same amount of faith and commitment on the street. The most important thing to me in street riding is being able to see ahead, so I'd rather have my head higher up. Also, at any moment I may need to change my lines, and pulling myself out of that racer position is an additional half second i may not be able to afford.

 

[motomania2007]

Moving your upper body forward and into the inside gives you:
More ground clearance because your bike is more vertical
More traction because your bike is more vertical
More options for dealing with unexpected stuff that can happen in a corner

There are no downsides and lots of upsides.

 

[Gary856]

Body positioning is dynamic and everpresent – from getting out of bed, moving about, or even standing still. It’s about where to position your body to match your movement. We learned as children and do this subconsciously. This extends to all sports.

When riding, the purpose of proper body position is way more than just reducing lean angle to maximizing traction. It’s like dancing with a partner - which way is the bike moving now and in the next instant, and where should you position your body to complement and synchronize with the bike’s movement? It’s about thinking ahead, anticipating the movement, and actively using your whole body as needed – weighting the pegs, locking or sticking out the knee, floating over the seat, twisting the torso, bending the elbows, angling the grip on the throttle, dipping or squaring the shoulders, kissing the mirror, hanging off, etc. The body movement may be subtle or dramatic as you see fit, but the basic principles are the same.

The rule of thumb is to lean in (keep the bike more upright, maximize traction) on higher speed sweeping turns, and lean out (push the bike down while your body stays upright) on lower speed tight turns (tighten the turning radius) or slippery pavement (easier to handle slides), but there are many shades of grey. A lightweight supermoto type bike like the DRZ400sm is great to experiment body position on. You can play with leaning in (sportbike style) or leaning out (dirt bike style) in different types of corners, shifting your weight around, and really feeling the effect of your body position on the bike. This experience translates to bigger, heavier bikes too.

It takes seat time on a variety of roads and conditions to develop the feel. Once you’ve figured out the fundamentals, you can freestyle based on the mood, the bike, the road and the condition.

 

[afm199]

Body positioning is dynamic and everpresent – from getting out of bed, moving about, or even standing still. It’s about where to position your body to match your movement. We learned as children and do this subconsciously. This extends to all sports.

When riding, the purpose of proper body position is way more than just reducing lean angle to maximizing traction. It’s like dancing with a partner - which way is the bike moving now and in the next instant, and where should you position your body to complement and synchronize with the bike’s movement? It’s about thinking ahead, anticipating the movement, and actively using your whole body as needed – weighting the pegs, locking or sticking out the knee, floating over the seat, twisting the torso, bending the elbows, angling the grip on the throttle, dipping or squaring the shoulders, kissing the mirror, hanging off, etc. The body movement may be subtle or dramatic as you see fit, but the basic principles are the same.

The rule of thumb is to lean in (keep the bike more upright, maximize traction) on higher speed sweeping turns, and lean out (push the bike down while your body stays upright) on lower speed tight turns (tighten the turning radius) or slippery pavement (easier to handle slides), but there are many shades of grey. A lightweight supermoto type bike like the DRZ400sm is great to experiment body position on. You can play with leaning in (sportbike style) or leaning out (dirt bike style) in different types of corners, shifting your weight around, and really feeling the effect of your body position on the bike. This experience translates to bigger, heavier bikes too.

It takes seat time on a variety of roads and conditions to develop the feel. Once you’ve figured out the fundamentals, you can freestyle based on the mood, the bike, the road and the condition.

I disagree on this. On a Supermoto crossing up is standard practice.

On a road bike, the only time you cross up on low speed tight turns is when they are so slow the bike won't counter steer. Otherwise, it's lean off just as in medium and high speed bends.

 

[Siris]

I am more hesitant to hang off the bike in street riding, especially going around blind corners, as sometimes I find a huge pothole or garbage or rocks or whatever, that if I don't have both knees squeezing the tank, I may have fallen off with just one leg providing anchor when going over or around those things. Even if I try to avoid them, the fast swerving is tough to do when hanging off with one knee out.

Body lean for most street speeds seem to be adequate.

 

[Gary856]

I disagree on this. On a Supermoto crossing up is standard practice.

On a road bike, the only time you cross up on low speed tight turns is when they are so slow the bike won't counter steer. Otherwise, it's lean off just as in medium and high speed bends.

As I said there are many shades of grey.

Should you ride an adventure bike on a dirty, twisty road like a supermoto or a sportbike? What about riding a sportbike on a dirty goat road? I take the mix-martial arts approach – learn the different techniques, understand their applications, and use where appropriate. For example, leaning off reduced lean angle, which is good for mid-high speed turns with open sight line, but it doesn’t work well when you cannot see around a blind corner (especially after dark).

On goat roads where sight line is a higher priority than outright speed and traction, I often push the bike down like a dirt bike, whether it's a GS, a Multistrada, or a ZX-10R. On my 690SM, it’s even more of a mixed bag – hang off or cross up (with a leg out, occasionally, just for the hell of it) – whatever feels good.

I generally ride within my ability and maintain a margin of safety, so I have the leeway to mess around.

 

[tzrider]

I'm pretty simplistic about body position in cornering, having two main purposes:

1. Reduce lean angle
2. Lock onto the bike without using the bars

With the types of bikes I ride, crossed up doesn't make sense, where hanging off does. This does not change according to speed; I have never been able to prove that being crossed up allows a tighter turn at low speed as some claim. I think some just like how it feels.

On the street, I hang off less most of the time, but will still lock onto the tank in the same way to minimize unintended bar inputs. One consideration on the street is how your riding looks to an outside observer, e.g. cops. It seems like a good idea to appear relaxed and unhurried, rather than to "look fast."

Another way to avoid using unnecessary lean angle is to steer the bike quickly and crisply. A slower turn rate will require more lean angle as it results in a more bulbous line. At the same speed, a quicker steering input will result in a flatter arc and will thus require a little less lean angle, all other things being equal.

 

[aniladitya]

May be this question got answered before. How does hanging off reduces lean angle? When we look at tires with no chicken strips, doesn't it mean the rider is using all the traction the tire is providing irrespective of his body position?

 

[stangmx13]

May be this question got answered before. How does hanging off reduces lean angle? When we look at tires with no chicken strips, doesn't it mean the rider is using all the traction the tire is providing irrespective of his body position?

When u hang off, the effective lean angle of you and the bike doesn’t change. But placing your center of gravity inwards means the bikes center of gravity must be outwards to keep the overall center of gravity the same. So the bike leans less. There’s more nuansce to it, but that’s most of it.

Traction isn’t just dependent on the bikes lean angle and the tire’s properties. Load is another huge component. So no, if someone managed to ride all the way to the edge, we can’t be certain they used maximum traction. Honestly, if they weren’t a pro at the track, they prob weren’t even close.

 

[motomania2007]

May be this question got answered before. How does hanging off reduces lean angle? When we look at tires with no chicken strips, doesn't it mean the rider is using all the traction the tire is providing irrespective of his body position?

In a simple example, if moving your body to the inside of the curve moved the combind center of gravity of bike and rider 5 degrees to the inside, then the bike could go around the corner with about 5 degrees less lean angle at the same speed. Thus gains ground clearance because the bike is 5 degrees more vertical AND, it increases the forces of gravity downward through the contact patch of the tire and reduces the lateral forces on the tire contact patch saving a little traction.

 

[EastBayDave]

Iv'e commented on this before. Before I started racing I hung off everywhere, on any bike. Cruiser with ape hangers? I looked like Marc Marquez.
Now, after 13 years racing and 40 years riding, I hardly ever hang off on the street. And my normal pace is pretty fast. I learned that with high visual horizon and good line selection along with good decision making I just don't need to be hanging off at anything but insane street speeds. The only limits I use now is if any hard parts are dragging.

Mad

:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup
Rarely hang off anymore; most recent rides suggest I can do a modest pace sitting straight up & just countersteering...

 

[tzrider]

... AND, it increases the forces of gravity downward through the contact patch of the tire and reduces the lateral forces on the tire contact patch saving a little traction.

This is not true.

 

[Gary856]

This is not true.

What is not true, and how would you state it differently?

The way I read it, Motomania was explaining the effect of lean angle on the vertical force vector (the force of gravity downward) vs. the horizontal force vector (the lateral force). I get what he's saying.

 

[tzrider]

What is not true, and how would you state it differently?

The way I read it, Motomania was explaining the effect of lean angle on the vertical force vector (the force of gravity downward) vs. the horizontal force vector (the lateral force). I get what he's saying.

The entire statement is false. Hanging off allows you to relax the bike's lean angle but has absolutely no effect on either the vertical or horizontal force vectors.