Bad Rectifier?

[MoldTheClay]

So down in Half Moon Bay yesterday I experienced something truly weird for me. My bike's entire display died at a light, then a moment later, the battery itself. Got it to the side of the road and called a friend to help jump start me, as they lived about 20 minutes away. We jumped it, she started right up, we disconnected the leads, then put my seat back on. As I got on the bike though, the same thing happened. First the display, then a few seconds later the bike stopped running.

Damn it.

So now we decide to just give it a while to charge. Hook it up to her battery and just kind of sat and bullshitted for a while. We didn't start the car, as I know that can overload my electrical systems, just let it run while attacked to my friends car. After about 20 minutes we figured there HAD to be some charge in the damned thing so we just disconnected and gave it a shot.

Same damned thing.

I am on my way to swap my battery out, hoping that it is just dead. It's still under warranty coverage as I got it in december, so it's a safe thing to swap.

Still, what I have read online is that a faulty rectifier will cause the headlights, control cluster, and engine to die in that order. I figure that's worth testing, but I cannot for the life of me figure out where my rectifier is on my ninja 1000 and seem to have lost my shop manual.

If anybody could give me a tip on where to search, correct me as to what the problem might be, or give me a link to an online version of the manual I would seriously appreciate it.

 

[mototireguy]

If anybody could give me a tip on where to search, correct me as to what the problem might be, or give me a link to an online version of the manual I would seriously appreciate it.

Start with the sticky.

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394141

 

[MoldTheClay]

Start with the sticky.

http://bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394141

Working on it now, but of course the harbor freight multimeter I bought is busted.

 

[Kameron808]

Working on it now, but of course the harbor freight multimeter I bought is busted.

Bought??? The multimeter has been one of the freebies there for 30 years! But yeah, they're trash.

 

[Maddevill]

Is the bike carbs or FI? On FI bikes ANY issue with electrical system, sush as a shorted cell in the battery can cause all kinds of things to go crazy. Check grounds for looseness. On carb bikes, a bad rectifier usually causes the bike to run on the battery until the battery gets so weak that the bike starts to misfire and die. The symptom will be a dead battery when you try to restart.

Mad

 

[EastBayDave]

Working on it now, but of course the harbor freight multimeter I bought is busted.

I have a spare meter if you need to borrow...

 

[ST Guy]

Technically, it's a VRR, voltage regulator and rectifier. Two functions in one unit. And yes, they do go bad on motorcycles. The other common part that can fail on motorcycle charging system is the stator, the coils that create the AC current that is then regulated/rectified by the VRR into useable DC current.

FYI, a fully discharged battery, one that won't run the bike like it seems is your situation, takes a lot longer than 20 minutes of running the engine. Especially if the charging system is compromised (which it could be). When you get the bike home, put a real battery charger (designed/sized for motorcycle batteries, not car batteries) on it and charge it overnight. Remove the charger from the battery and let the battery sit for a couple hours before measuring the battery voltage. If 12.6 or better, your battery may be OK. (Not a comprehensive test, though. Voltage is only half the equation but for now it'll do.) Then start the bike and measure voltage at the battery with the engine running at 3 to 4000 rpm. It should be 14+ volts. 14.4 give or take.

Take those measurements and report back.

(Why, at this point in the highly advanced world of electronics, bike manufacturers can't design and manufacture charging components that don't fail is beyond me.)

 

[motomania2007]

(Why, at this point in the highly advanced world of electronics, bike manufacturers can't design and manufacture charging components that don't fail is beyond me.)

Simple answer is cheapest components they can to squeak out every penny of the design.

 

[MoldTheClay]

Technically, it's a VRR, voltage regulator and rectifier. Two functions in one unit. And yes, they do go bad on motorcycles. The other common part that can fail on motorcycle charging system is the stator, the coils that create the AC current that is then regulated/rectified by the VRR into useable DC current.

FYI, a fully discharged battery, one that won't run the bike like it seems is your situation, takes a lot longer than 20 minutes of running the engine. Especially if the charging system is compromised (which it could be). When you get the bike home, put a real battery charger (designed/sized for motorcycle batteries, not car batteries) on it and charge it overnight. Remove the charger from the battery and let the battery sit for a couple hours before measuring the battery voltage. If 12.6 or better, your battery may be OK. (Not a comprehensive test, though. Voltage is only half the equation but for now it'll do.) Then start the bike and measure voltage at the battery with the engine running at 3 to 4000 rpm. It should be 14+ volts. 14.4 give or take.

Take those measurements and report back.

(Why, at this point in the highly advanced world of electronics, bike manufacturers can't design and manufacture charging components that don't fail is beyond me.)

The battery was under warranty so I just swapped it. Everything worked fine with the new battery so I decided to chance going to work on the hope that it was just the battery.

I chose poorly.

I made it to work and noticed that my neutral indicator was dimming and flickering, so I turned the bike off to see if I could restart it. Dead, buzzing noise and it wouldn't start. Jumping it had the same result as before, even trying to charge it for 30+ minutes and nada. Something is seriously awry in my electrical system.

I panic purchased a new R/R and Stator/gasket from bikebandit while at work, figuring whichever part isn't working can just be returned.

The only other things I can think about are that my heated grips went out a while back and my 12v outlet got water damage over the winter from water getting inside. Could a minor short or damage in an accessory component like those cause a major problem? I know that's probably a really stupid question, but I am kind-of grasping at straws just in case it's something simple instead of major electrical components. My guess though, considering a 25 minute ride at highway speeds still drained the battery from 100% is that it has to be the R/R or Stator, and I will not know without testing both components.

 

[afm199]

The battery was under warranty so I just swapped it. Everything worked fine with the new battery so I decided to chance going to work on the hope that it was just the battery.

I chose poorly.

I made it to work and noticed that my neutral indicator was dimming and flickering, so I turned the bike off to see if I could restart it. Dead, buzzing noise and it wouldn't start. Jumping it had the same result as before, even trying to charge it for 30+ minutes and nada. Something is seriously awry in my electrical system.

I panic purchased a new R/R and Stator/gasket from bikebandit while at work, figuring whichever part isn't working can just be returned.

The only other things I can think about are that my heated grips went out a while back and my 12v outlet got water damage over the winter from water getting inside. Could a minor short or damage in an accessory component like those cause a major problem? I know that's probably a really stupid question, but I am kind-of grasping at straws just in case it's something simple instead of major electrical components. My guess though, considering a 25 minute ride at highway speeds still drained the battery from 100% is that it has to be the R/R or Stator, and I will not know without testing both components.

Before you use either one ( once installed, no returns on electrical parts) run the charging tests with the meter on the RR and the stator output. That way you can actually figure out which is bad without swapping them and losing the right to return parts.

Start with a fresh charged battery. Check voltage at battery terminals at 4000 rpm, should be around 14-15 volts direct current. Then check stator out put, pin to pin ( 3 combos), should be around 60 volts AC. That tells you quickly what is failing.

 

[mototireguy]

I'll bet $1 hobo dollar that when you open up the stator cover you will see one or more stator windings burnt/krispy.

Shame you had to flush a brand new $100 battery down the drain during this process.

 

[dowlinginchico]

Is the bike carbs or FI? On FI bikes ANY issue with electrical system, sush as a shorted cell in the battery can cause all kinds of things to go crazy. Check grounds for looseness. On carb bikes, a bad rectifier usually causes the bike to run on the battery until the battery gets so weak that the bike starts to misfire and die. The symptom will be a dead battery when you try to restart.

Mad

Well said. I was traveling in the 680 fast lane, my super duke (FI) started to slightly misfire at first, 20 seconds later the misfires got worse, 10 seconds after that the bike died and left me stranded on a freeway split gore point.

Got the bike home and saw that the rectifier ground wire connector had fatigued and broke away, leaving the ground dangling. Added a new connector and I was good to go. Check the simple stuff first.

 

[MoldTheClay]

I'll bet $1 hobo dollar that when you open up the stator cover you will see one or more stator windings burnt/krispy.

Shame you had to flush a brand new $100 battery down the drain during this process.

I'd bet so as well. I finally got a working multimeter and checked the resistance coming from the stator.

All 3 leads were grounding out to the frame.

"well there's your problem!"

Glad I ordered it when I did. I'm guessing at this point (80K+ miles on bike) I may as well swap the R/R since I have already ordered it as well and it probably has taken some damage from the bad stator.

 

[MoldTheClay]

Well said. I was traveling in the 680 fast lane, my super duke (FI) started to slightly misfire at first, 20 seconds later the misfires got worse, 10 seconds after that the bike died and left me stranded on a freeway split gore point.

Got the bike home and saw that the rectifier ground wire connector had fatigued and broke away, leaving the ground dangling. Added a new connector and I was good to go. Check the simple stuff first.

On my bike the rectifier wiring is all in one big as hell plug with heavily insulated wiring in one big bundle. I was curious if some simple wire was out of place, but those fuckers are built like tanks.

 

[MoldTheClay]

I'll bet $1 hobo dollar that when you open up the stator cover you will see one or more stator windings burnt/krispy.

Shame you had to flush a brand new $100 battery down the drain during this process.

It was on warranty and might still be? Threw the battery on a tender/charger and hoping it will still do its job after I get the new parts in. there are worse things to blow 100 bucks on I guess.

 

[ST Guy]

Short to ground on all three stator leads? I want to see pix of that stator when you open it up. 'Should be really toasty.

And since you've already got a new VRR as well, I'd just install it and call it done. Make sure that all your connectors are clean and snug and that there are no wires between the new stator and the VRR that have hardened insulation or look like they've seen too much heat.

 

[Demoni]

I'll bet $1 hobo dollar that when you open up the stator cover you will see one or more stator windings burnt/krispy..

I'll double down on that bet, my F800gs has eaten 2 stators in 80k miles and both times the symptoms were the same.

You can perform a few tests to narrow down if it's a bad reg/rec or the stator, but you will need a non-trash multi-meter...

Set the meter to VDC (Horizontal straight line with 3 dots under it). With the bike running hook the probes up to the battery, with everything working properly you should expect to see ~14v. I suspect you will see 12v (that means the battery voltage is greater than the voltage your bike is producing).

Next step is to test the voltages coming out of the stator. You need to locate the plug first, it should have 3 relatively thick wires and will go into your case on the stator side. Unplug the 3 pin connector and with the meter on VAC (Sine wave) start probing and record your results. First check 1 and 3 (It dose not matter what color probe goes where) then 1 and 2 and last 2 and 3. All the numbers should be close together and in the 30-50v range.

Fluke makes good (but $$) meters. Buy once cry once...


Good luck !

 

[ST Guy]

I'll double down on that bet, my F800gs has eaten 2 stators in 80k miles and both times the symptoms were the same.

You can perform a few tests to narrow down if it's a bad reg/rec or the stator, but you will need a non-trash multi-meter...

Set the meter to VDC (Horizontal straight line with 3 dots under it). With the bike running hook the probes up to the battery, with everything working properly you should expect to see ~14v. I suspect you will see 12v (that means the battery voltage is greater than the voltage your bike is producing).

Next step is to test the voltages coming out of the stator. You need to locate the plug first, it should have 3 relatively thick wires and will go into your case on the stator side. Unplug the 3 pin connector and with the meter on VAC (Sine wave) start probing and record your results. First check 1 and 3 (It dose not matter what color probe goes where) then 1 and 2 and last 2 and 3. All the numbers should be close together and in the 30-50v range.

Fluke makes good (but $$) meters. Buy once cry once...


Good luck !

OP has already determined each of the three stator wires is shorted to ground. That confirms a dead stator and no more tests are required.

+1 on Fluke. Good examples can be found on eBay for cheap. A quality meter.

 

[MoldTheClay]

Got the new stator (it was blackened and fried) in as well as the new r/r.

checked battery voltage after charging it for a day and it read I think 12.7v. Started her up and the battery is at 14.34v at idle and it goes down to 13.78v when revving yo 4k rpm.

Sounds like I am all good to go to me, but if somebody can confirm to me that everything sounds normal I would appreciate it!

 

[mototireguy]

checked battery voltage after charging it for a day and it read I think 12.7v. Started her up and the battery is at 14.34v at idle and it goes down to 13.78v when revving yo 4k rpm.

Those numbers are in the normal ballpark.

Should be good to go.