Automated responses ~ Building up your skill set

budman

General Menace
Staff member
I had a little reminder on Saturday and how much automated responses can help you on your ride. I have noted that below, but first wanted to share my observations on how my automated response was taught. SO first a little definition.

What I mean by automated responses is the way you react to something. The body has plenty. Pain when burnt or cut, blinking when the eyes are blown with air etc.. these are involuntary, we generally don't have control over them.

What I am talking about here are the voluntary reactions that are learned and become better applied with repetition to the point where they just occur without your brain having to process the input to react. This is because the brain has done so over and over to a point..well.. where it is automatic basically.

Many of these types of responses can be found many different sports, but in motorcycling and they go a long way in keeping you on two. These learned responses become part of your skill set as a rider. They will not alone keep you on two, but will help in certain situations. Good skills and good judgment are the combined with a touch of luck to really be the safest rider possible. This thread inspired me to write this and I recommend the read if you are a newer rider.

Good speed/Bad Speed (judgment of the ride)
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274229


In my opinion most of these skills (automated responses) are best learned on the dirt. Some are natural and others are not and have to be practiced to be obtained. It amazing how integral the body is in riding, but that is even more extreme in the dirt where body positions are multiplied to the extreme.

All movements are for one of two reasons. Balance or traction.

On a road bike we have a few positions that we become familiar with. More if you take it to the track. If you ever watch a MX race you see the riders moving a lot trying to do two things.. balance the bike (Body, bike weight and power) and enhance traction buy moving the body to optimum position to get the bikes power to the ground or to get the most braking force to the ground. They really end up becoming one in the same, but there not.. :p

The other part of balance is reacting to the terrain and its input back, which changes quickly and can cause huge disruptions in your intentions. All of this is very important to optimize the speed over various obstacles. Also involved in the equation is the throttle (power), which also provides input into the balance and traction. Not sure that all makes sense, but there is a ton going on when riding a dirt bike... almost constantly.

There is a ton going on a MotoGP bike or a street bike when pushed to the limits on the track as well, but the motions are minimized and it is hard to see and can be just as hard to master. Specifically because they are done at high speed for the most part and the danger factor has increased immensely for mistakes.

The bottom line here is the dirt bike is an awesome tool to enhance your skill set and it can be done with small bikes in non threatening track conditions as well. In fact for street, dirt bike crossover skills are some of the best automated responses to chase to add to your skill set. King Kenny Roberts used the small bikes to train the elite GP stars and now American Supercamp and Rich Oliver both offer schools for this training. We also see top AFM stars go out and play on the small bikes too. This is even better than the schools because they get to repeat it often enough to really get the added skill set down. Practice makes near perfect.

Now my little application from this weekend's ride. I was out on the tard and heading home after a full day of fun. I had noted a lot of slick spots and a few areas where rocks or other debris were on the road.. all successfully traversed during the day. I was on Page Mill about 1/2 way down from skyline heading into a left turn that was shaded. (Maybe 35mph) I had the leg out because I was riding just a bit aggressively and when I flicked it in the front slid out and my foot now skimmed the road with a quickly increasing load and bam.. I was going again in my chosen direction without as much as a heightened heart beat or my brain going OH SHIT. This all took place in less than a second..

First to explain the automated response that got me back in control.
The problem: front end washing

The response: pick up the gas to transfer the weight to the back wheel and unload the front. The unique thing is I did this without even thinking about it.. my brain noted to transfer of weight to my foot and the wheel slide and turned the throttle for me without waiting for me to say to it. Remember.. the whole thing was less than a second.

Why.. because of years of the same action on dirt bikes and later on the road race track this response has become automated. My brain does it for me because I have done it so many times.

My heart rate stayed un affected because I had little time to react and the reaction corrected the problem and I was already thinking about the right turn that followed.

If I had not spent a lot of time in the dirt I doubt it would have had the same outcome. The number of times that this has ever happened on the street has been so infrequent that I could have never learned to make that response automatically and trying to tuck the front on the street for practice is :loco both in terms of potential injury and the $$$ to repair mistakes.

Some of the other automated responses that dirt biking has engrained in me have helped out thru the years as well. Balance of the body and proper application of power are your tools to survive, but they have to come from practice to be automated. Yes.. you can get lucky and that may help in the future, but in the dirt I got to do them over and over and yes... over and occasionally over the bars when done incorrectly. :teeth

If you are serious about increasing your skill set dirt bikes are really a great way to do it and you don't have to be flying over double jumps, bashing berms or surfing the whoops. A simple oval on the dirt can be an awesome teacher and go miles in making you aware of what you need to do to stay on two.. and the price is small usually for not staying on two. Plus with a friend or 10 this can be an absolute hoot! :party

Do you guys have other examples you want to share??

I have a few more... but will hold for now.. cause this is a long ass post!

Ride smart today...! and Ride again tomorrow.

:smoking
 

Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
And this is why I keep saying msf training, as valuable as it is, is just the beginning.
It takes many hours of riding to get to the point where your body will react automatically to threats.
Sometimes, you don't have time to think about what to do, you just have to do it.

Oh, an example. Yeah, a few years ago, I was riding my BSA 441 down the street, mind wandering a bit (after all, how dangerous could it be, riding a motorcycle with only 35 HP?). I was looking at something on the sidewalk, maybe a pretty girl, I don't remember. I looked up, just in time to see a pair of bright red lights in front of me, getting bigger, and further apart very quickly.
Without any thought or consideration, and quite instantaneously my right hand grabbed the brake lever hard. I thought I was going to crash for sure. I think the back tire left the pavement for a moment, and the bike stopped inches from the bumper of the minivan that had suddenly decided to stop in front of me.

Edit...
Yes, a 1970 BSA (and a number of other 1969 and 1970 BSA's and Triumphs) has an absolutely fantastic double leading shoe front brake. I'd put it against a lot of much more modern disk brakes, any time.
 
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Skidmarx

Don't Shoot!
Things can go south in the blink of an eye...or quicker. I've learned that well in the years I have riding. One thing that has saved me numerous times is not over correcting in would could be a panic situation. I've learned that small inputs to brakes, steering, throttle or body position seem to work better than dramatic ones when trying to pull yourself out of sticky situations.

What are other's opinions on this? I guess what I'm saying is that a motorcycle is inherently stable (especially in a straight line) unless something interferes with its stability. Furthermore, if you allow it to, many times a bike will find a way to correct itself.

Dramatic inputs can function of destabilize a bike further, making a bad situation worse.

Having no formal training other than reading articles, how true is the thinking above?

BTW, I'm not saying that just sitting there is the best way to respond to a bad situation. I'm saying that it has been my experience that minimizing inputs can help stabilize a bike possibly saving a get off....or that I'm very lucky.:laughing
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
I agree.. teh moto wants minimal input.. too much is often too much. Way! and the bike will not respond.. as I said you cannot really see what a MotoGP dude does because it is not that much as far as the body is concerned. Throttle.. balance is likely a small amount of input and for a moto that is a lot....

Little things are big thing when on two... learning to understand what the little things are that give YOU control of teh moto is what is really important.

Live it...learn it.. ride it..understand it.. a few words that really have a HUGE affect on your staying on two.

:smoking
 

GAJ

Well-known member
One of the things new riders need to try and aspire to is riding "loose" on the bike.

The death grip on the bars conspires against everything being discussed here...and the SS riding position doesn't help for newer riders who don't know how to use the muscles in their torsos to allow a looser grip on the clipons.
 

louemc

Well-known member
Great thread budman, for myself I owe my auto-response to Dirt riding, both the nothing special speed of playing around in challenging terrain with friends, and later on, desert racing (where it gets serious). Anyway this mental conditioning spans a lot of time, and the very wide range of situations, that the mind had to sort out.

I wasn't exposed to any other way to get there.
 

Spec-ECU

required protocol
The only thing I can add as a personal experience was as recent as this past Sunday, when I rode down to the Pacific Coast as part of my ongoing test of a new camera I bought.

I decided to take 84 down, but after talking to a nice gal who advised me that there were dirt and damp spots on the road at STP prior to my way down, and seeing the road condition myself, I decided to remind myself that I wasn't on 84 to play that day, that I just need go through it to get to the coast. So I more or less coasted down by my standards, still riding The Pace (I'm a huge proponent :thumbup), but a mellow Pace. I get past the fire station and onto my most favorite part of 84. I increased my pace just slightly at this point because I could never resist this part of 84, but still well within a mellow pace, and during one of the sweeping right turns, my rear wheel slides on me for a good moment.

I don't have the dirt experience, or a hell of a lot of sliding experience (maybe once on the front, twice now on the rear, all saved), so I don't really know what I can attribute my automatic response (or lack of a response) to not chop the throttle off when this occurred. All I know is that it happened, I stayed steady on the throttle, the tire grips again, and I was still on my merry way with my reaction being just a nonchalant "huh" for the event. I do know that as a practitioner of this sport, I always "mentalize" events that could happen on two wheels that have not happened to me, memorizing what others more experienced than I have shared with me as far as how to deal with certain incidents. For example, I know I've had my fair share of repeating to myself "when it slides, don't chop the throttle, when it slides, don't chop the throttle" as a way of training myself preemptively.

Like I said though, I don't know if that's why I didn't chop the throttle, or if I just got lucky by fluke that my body didn't react like it supposedly should have in that situation. :teeth
 

bellisan

Well-known member
One of the things new riders need to try and aspire to is riding "loose" on the bike.

The death grip on the bars conspires against everything being discussed here...and the SS riding position doesn't help for newer riders who don't know how to use the muscles in their torsos to allow a looser grip on the clipons.

This goes to more than just the grips. When the going gets rough (especially in a turn) Ive found that getting the butt off the seat can lead to major improvements. The bike is free to do its skittery thing but the suspension will keep the rubber planted much better than with 200 lbs of protoplasm interfering. 30% of the bike-rider combo can now hold a steadier line, also making life easier for the mechanical part.

On a related note, I think that there are significant differences between the dirt and pavement, despite the crossover. They relate to the differences in stability between the two machines. In this regard, I think that MXrs may be closer to MotoGP bikes than to regular street or sport bikes. I think that at the highest level of pavement performance, the perceived stability (MotoGP riders look soooo smoooth) is more a function of the rider than the machine (ever look at the shot from the belly pan looking at the front wheel and see the magnitude and rapidity of the deflections?). Less highly spirited street machines require much less active input.

Cheers

Lou
 

Rich Oliver

Well-known member
Be a flat track superstar..................

Thanks to Budman for opening up this important subject for debate and to have a forum to tell personal stories! I would agree it's essential to have subconscious reactions at the ready when you get in trouble.

I like to think of using dirt bike training to improve pavement skills as the same as a baseball hitter using donuts on his bat to warm up. Just like the baseball player, when riding in the dirt the bike slides much more and the traction is limited, so the rider learns skills well and body timing and reactions get faster, then when they go back on the street or track they're ready for most anything.

So, back to the dirt, what you can do is slide the bike by using too much brake, lean angle or throttle, and make the dirt bike lose traction on one or both wheels.

This can be done at first with the result sometimes being a small crash. After a few crashes the rider will start to gain control of the sliding wheel or wheels, to the point where it becomes more comfortable to let the bike misbehave in this manner.

Of course over time and many laps the skills improve to the point where the slides are used to go faster and faster around a particular track. Then line choice becomes important, as well as passing strategy if other riders are present.

To complete the learning curve a rider usually becomes a very good manager of controlled slides, clean passes and has good racing pace and strategy. When all this is mastered on a small bike, the rider is ready to increase the challenge by moving up onto a larger machine, and or a more competitive class in the world of dirt bikes or street/track bikes.

Most riders of my age started on minibikes, then motocross bikes, then got a license and started to ride on the street. In my case I began at age 11, quite late for most riders. But that still gave me 5 or so years of off road experience before hitting the street. My first street bike was a 77 Yamaha RD400! I thought at the time the RD was really fast, and the wheelies..........killer.

But how many of us know someone who starts out not on a 400 but at 600 or 750? How fast is a 600 nowadays compared to my old RD? Yikes.

So unfortunately some newer riders are entering the sport on a bike that's too fast, and they are missing vital dirt bike experience. They are trying to get all the needed skills by riding on the street or track only.

Now, you can learn how to slide on the street but it takes a long time and a lot of money to repair the bike.

You can also learn how to control a panic situation on the street or track but the first few times you get into trouble you may have an accident, which could be bad.

So keep in mind the mini bike for training, it has a low top speed but if you keep the training area (track) small, and you have a bunch of friends with similar bikes, you can have a lot of fun while you learn. Before long you will be a flat track superstar with incredible balance!

Thanks,
Rich
 

GAJ

Well-known member
I've never heard a negative word about your school, Rich...may just have to try it one day before I get much more past my mid 50's!

I have a friend who has 40 acres...maybe I should look into the cost of some used minibikes, as you suggest!
 

Rich Oliver

Well-known member
40 acres

I've never heard a negative word about your school, Rich...may just have to try it one day before I get much more past my mid 50's!

I have a friend who has 40 acres...maybe I should look into the cost of some used minibikes, as you suggest!


Thanks and as far as the 40 acres, the main thing is to compact the soil really well, and use an intermedate tire. We use Bridgestone trail wings on the back and a knobbie on the front, that way the track stays in good shape.

RO
 

silversvs

Lean, Twist, repeat.....
You don't need 40 acres. We did this on just about 3/4 of an acre. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdXyQ9LqPQE that was the first ride after we put the tractor away.

Since then we have been imitating Rich's Mystery School as often as possible.

If you have not had a chance to run through the Mystery School I highly recommend attending. Two days of sliding around on the TTR125 improved my street riding and my police motor riding skills. My buddies and I had so much fun that we now enjoy racing on the small track almost more than any other riding. Rich is a great instructor. Those skills definetly translate to the street and will become "automated responses" as Budman was talking about.
 

CYPHER1102

Well-known member
One of the things new riders need to try and aspire to is riding "loose" on the bike.

The death grip on the bars conspires against everything being discussed here...and the SS riding position doesn't help for newer riders who don't know how to use the muscles in their torsos to allow a looser grip on the clipons.

i agree on this one. me being a new rider was stiff on the bike and felt that i needed to grip on on the handles bars more stable. i kept readings forums and advice from other riders about apex point, lines, vanishing point, and etc. and one thing stood out was being "fluid" on the bike. i guess it comes to the same concept to bruce lee's water thing. "become water my friend..." or something like that. the more relax i am on my bike i notice that it was easier to go around corners and the bike responded a lot better!!

"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water." :thumbup
 

Riata

Active member
This is an extremely interesting thread for me and I'd appreciate any advice anyone has to offer. I'm 54 and just started riding six months ago, Kawasaki 650R. Took MSF and headed to CLASS in March.

Riding is one of the best things I've ever done, but it's been very frustrating. I've already crashed three times. No bad injuries. All slow speed, although I realize probably not slow enough. I understand two of the crashes, third is still a mystery. I really want to keep riding, but I have got to figure out a way to get better without all the damage to my bike and my confidence.

All of the friends I ride with started in the dirt. So - I said to myself, maybe I should do some dirt riding to increase my skill level. Some of my friends said great idea. Others said I'm probably too old. Bumps and bruises for a teenager could be broken bones for me.

Still trying to understand whether this is something I should try.
 

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
Still trying to understand whether this is something I should try.
I'm not a dirt-riding expert, but there are plenty of other BARFers who can offer informed opinions about the dangers of riding dirt at age 54.

Budman, Rich Oliver, and others have explained how dirt riding can help you develop automatic responses to loss of grip--and having that capability is a very good thing. But for the immediate question of your confidence, has reaction to loss of grip contributed to your crashes, or has it been something else?

If your noob experience has been like that of others (including mine, long ago), likely causes of solo crashes are poor brake application, loss of balance due to improper steering reaction, and panic induced by lack of vision discipline. I'm a big advocate of parking lot practice--low-speed drills to develop (and maintain) balance and visual skill needed to prevent those kinds of crashes. You might want to check out the parking lot practice threads in the Training forum.
 

budman

General Menace
Staff member
All of the friends I ride with started in the dirt. So - I said to myself, maybe I should do some dirt riding to increase my skill level. Some of my friends said great idea. Others said I'm probably too old. Bumps and bruises for a teenager could be broken bones for me.

Still trying to understand whether this is something I should try.

Yes IMO if you don't take it to extremes..

You don't need to ride an MX track.. rather an open field or easy trails is the way to go. Certainly Rich's school is a good way to try it.

The other thing of note is that a true MX bike is probably not the best bike to do it with. A trail model or older bike will slide easier and also provide input back a little easier as well.. By that I mean it will tell you your pushing the limit of the bike. Where a new bike might not tell you anything until your spit off.

Hope that helps.

:smoking
 

masameet

Rawr!
This is an extremely interesting thread for me and I'd appreciate any advice anyone has to offer. I'm 54 and just started riding six months ago, Kawasaki 650R. Took MSF and headed to CLASS in March.

Riding is one of the best things I've ever done, but it's been very frustrating. I've already crashed three times. No bad injuries. All slow speed, although I realize probably not slow enough. I understand two of the crashes, third is still a mystery. I really want to keep riding, but I have got to figure out a way to get better without all the damage to my bike and my confidence.

All of the friends I ride with started in the dirt. So - I said to myself, maybe I should do some dirt riding to increase my skill level. Some of my friends said great idea. Others said I'm probably too old. Bumps and bruises for a teenager could be broken bones for me.

Still trying to understand whether this is something I should try.


Come to this Sunday's cone practice in Martinez. We'll help you with slow speed turning, turning your head into and looking through the turn, and being smooth with the clutch and throttle. Then take a dirt riding class. Riding is about balance and coordination, not just speed. And the more skill sets you acquire, the better rider you'll be. Plus being more informed will also help you to figure out what you need to work on. Once you work on building your skills, you'll be able to concentrate on having fun while :ride.

And most newbies drop their bikes and hit the ground in slow speed U-turns. As I wrote, it's a balance thing when it comes to slow speed manuevers. And the problem of getting a nice bike as a beginner instead of a beater bike is you end up worrying about its looks instead of getting used to how it rides and feels under you.
 
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silversvs

Lean, Twist, repeat.....
This is an extremely interesting thread for me and I'd appreciate any advice anyone has to offer. I'm 54 and just started riding six months ago, Kawasaki 650R. Took MSF and headed to CLASS in March.

Riding is one of the best things I've ever done, but it's been very frustrating. I've already crashed three times. No bad injuries. All slow speed, although I realize probably not slow enough. I understand two of the crashes, third is still a mystery. I really want to keep riding, but I have got to figure out a way to get better without all the damage to my bike and my confidence.

All of the friends I ride with started in the dirt. So - I said to myself, maybe I should do some dirt riding to increase my skill level. Some of my friends said great idea. Others said I'm probably too old. Bumps and bruises for a teenager could be broken bones for me.

Still trying to understand whether this is something I should try.

Three crashes in six months would have me a bit concerned.

You were taught several great exercises in the MSF course regarding braking and turning. Find a wide open parking lot where you won't be bothering anyone and work on those skills. Get your confidence up and get to know your bike well.

Getting out and riding in the dirt is a great way to practice as well. As Budman said you don't need a hardcore motocross bike to do so. find a friend with an older dirtbike and goout and put around. Get used to it and then work on speed control, braking and cornering. Smooth is fast. Self confidence goes a long way toard good bike control.

What you really need is seat time and practice.
 

Riata

Active member
Thanks for the feedback. Btw, BARF is extremely valuable for a noob like me. I really appreciate all the time you experienced riders contribute.

One crash was target fixation, one was inadequate braking, one was loss of grip. The last one is the one I really don't understand.

I'll definitely check out the parking lot threads.
 

ThinkFast

Live Long
Two common "reaction" mistakes I see are panic braking using the rear brake instead of the front brake; and chopping the throttle when the rear end breaks loose. The former often results in a skid (and sometimes a highside) often followed by an impact with whatever obstacle prompted braking in the first place. Proper use of the front brake often times could have slowed the bike down in time to avoid the impact. The latter issue, chopping the throttle when the rear end lets go, is harder to overcome. And there is no guarantee you still won't crash if you stay on the gas after you spin up the rear. Still, chopping is a sure way to set up a highside, whereas staying on the gas gives you a chance to drive out of the situation and regain control.
 
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