ABS braking vs no-ABS braking

[Mike T]

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:teeth riding the non-ABS with that cage thingy looks fun though

 

[day004]

Nice. Cant wait for the posts from the experts telling us how THEY could have controlled it.

 

[Joshman]

To me it looks a little staged. The non-ABS rider seems to have slammed on his rear brake causing the back end to slip out. Then it looks like he locked up the front.

If their argument is the ABS stops the bike faster, I would like to see a more detailed test. If their argument is ABS stops people from panicking and grabbing a handful of brake, then I agree.

Edit: BTW: I am FAR from an expert, and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there with more educated opinions than mine.

 

[megaspaz]

ABS wasn't made to keep people from grabbing a handful of brakes. It was made so that if you did grab a handful of brake and got to the situation of locking your wheels, you could keep grabbing a handful of brake.

In the case of inexperienced riders, that rider would stop quicker and earlier on an ABS bike than a non ABS bike if the rider got to the point of locking his wheels. For pros and experienced riders, that would be up in the air. I remember seeing some suzuki abs vid where the test rider was a pro and the abs bike still stopped earlier and quicker than the non ABS bike when the wheels locked.

 

[Torpedo]

Oh hell yes! I gotta get me a set of them outriggers. Are they Supermoto legal?

 

[Burning1]

ABS wasn't made to keep people from grabbing a handful of brakes. It was made so that if you did grab a handful of brake and got to the situation of locking your wheels, you could keep grabbing a handful of brake.

It's also pretty good at achieving near ideal braking performance in very non-ideal conditions.

 

[Joshman]

ABS wasn't made to keep people from grabbing a handful of brakes. It was made so that if you did grab a handful of brake and got to the situation of locking your wheels, you could keep grabbing a handful of brake.

You're right, I didn't phrase my statement well. Of course ABS doesn't control the rider input, but instead the vehicle's response due to the input.

Thanks for the correction :cool

 

[boney]

Without ABS, the rider of the non-ABS in the above vid probably could not have stopped before he went out of the camera frame.

 

[Joshman]

What makes you say that?

 

[sixtytwo]

I'd be amazed if I saw a video where on asphalt, a bike without ABS was able to outbrake the same bike with ABS. No matter how good of a rider you are, the ABS is going to be better at keeping the bike at its braking threshold.

That said, I think that being a better rider is not even about matching your braking skills with ABS. It's about avoiding situations where you will even need ABS.

 

[Burning1]

Interesting personal experience...

My bike has an ABS. Two days ago, with an impending collision, I fell back to the brake techniques I learned at the track. On clean, dry pavement, I'm pretty sure the ABS did not activate.

 

[h2v7]

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2008/12/30/motorcycle-news/are-motorcycles-safer-with-antilock-brakes/

 

[Z3n]

I'd be amazed if I saw a video where on asphalt, a bike without ABS was able to outbrake the same bike with ABS. No matter how good of a rider you are, the ABS is going to be better at keeping the bike at its braking threshold.

That said, I think that being a better rider is not even about matching your braking skills with ABS. It's about avoiding situations where you will even need ABS.

Would you care to gamble on it? :laughing

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

That's not to say that ABS isn't incredibly useful in situations where traction is even slightly compromised...but in the dry, in good conditions, a skilled rider will consistently outbrake the ABS. (Of course, this also requires being honest about your skill level)

 

[boney]

Would you care to gamble on it? :laughing

http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html

That's not to say that ABS isn't incredibly useful in situations where traction is even slightly compromised...but in the dry, in good conditions, a skilled rider will consistently outbrake the ABS. (Of course, this also requires being honest about your skill level)

Sure, but I get to pick the stretch of pavement.

 

[jbt56]

ABS simply allows people to drive and ride like they're playing a video game- simply mash the brakes as hard as you can, and let the magic vehicle do the rest.:rolleyes
ABS simply uses sensors at each wheel to detect actual wheel speed Vs. speedometer speed. When a wheel slows too much (locks up), the computer releases hydraulic pressure to that/those brakes for a split second, until the wheel spins again. It repeats this about 10-100 times per second, as long as the brakes are mashed on.
In the old days, when one was expected to know how to drive, you would simply quickly ease up on your brake pedal, then bear down again, to achieve the same result. Miraculously, many millions of people did NOT die on the highways using this technique.:shocker
The outrigger bike in the video was simply ridden (purposefully) badly- the rider mashed the brakes, and held those suckers at full lock-up pressure. If he had modulated them properly, he could have stopped, probably a bit beyond the ABS bike, but still quite safely.

 

[Angel-be-Good]

Fun video. It only shows what happens when riders of both bikes mash on the brakes, certainly not what happens most of the time we stop our bikes.

Fact is, activating ABS is not the fastest way to stop a bike (or a car), but it certainly beats tucking the front. I'll welcome ABS as it becomes more standard. It takes away from nothing.

The assertion that the non-ABS bike could stop quicker under ideal conditions is false because the ABS-equipped bike can stop just as well without activating ABS. ABS only activates to save yer ass, doesn't activate when you don't need it. So unless having ABS means you automatically ham-fist all of your braking, an ABS-equipped bike will stop just as well.

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2008/12/30/motorcycle-news/are-motorcycles-safer-with-antilock-brakes/

Problem with the cited study is that, as far as I can tell, it doesn't consider A) the types of bikes that are sold with ABS, or B) the type of rider that ponies up $1k for ABS. Until recently, crotch-rockets for squids didn't have ABS available, it was mostly for the fogies on BMWs who don't die on their bikes as often. And a person that is willing to spend $1k extra to equip his CBR with ABS is probably naturally more safety conscious and less likely have a fatal crash.

Now I don't disagree ABS is an effective safety measure, but that study doesn't make a compelling case.

 

[Z3n]

Fun video. It only shows what happens when riders of both bikes mash on the brakes, certainly not what happens most of the time we stop our bikes.

Fact is, activating ABS is not the fastest way to stop a bike (or a car), but it certainly beats tucking the front. I'll welcome ABS as it becomes more standard. It takes away from nothing.

The assertion that the non-ABS bike could stop quicker under ideal conditions is false because the ABS-equipped bike can stop just as well without activating ABS. ABS only activates to save yer ass, doesn't activate when you don't need it. So unless having ABS means you automatically ham-fist all of your braking, an ABS-equipped bike will stop just as well.

Read the study I posted. It's not a huge difference, but bikes with ABS do consistently stop slower under heavy braking and under certain circumstances (Ie, where a human can use their judgment on locking the tire). And that's not accounting for situations that "spoof" the ABS. A number of BMW owners had serious complaints when the ABS would completely release the brakes when the bike would hit a bump coming up to a stop, even if ABS shouldn't have been engaged, causing a significant extension of stopping distance, sometimes far enough to put them into an intersection.

ABS is wonderful if you're willing to accept some minor compromises and the fact that some control will be taken out of your hands. Sometimes I intentionally lock the rear wheel to slide sideways into a parking spot. Sometimes you get a little harmless slip over a painted line...the problem with ABS is it doesn't have any awareness about the situation you're in, it's a rigid rule of when it enables and if that rule gets engaged at the wrong time you can have some serious issues.

Do I think ABS is good? Absolutely. Is it better than a human rider yet? There are some situations where it's highly unlikely that ABS will ever be able to beat a human rider, at least until ABS can realize that sometimes a little sliding can be a good thing...see the study I linked for a good example of it.

 

[Angel-be-Good]

Read the study I posted. It's not a huge difference, but bikes with ABS do consistently stop slower under heavy braking and under certain circumstances (Ie, where a human can use their judgment on locking the tire). And that's not accounting for situations that "spoof" the ABS. A number of BMW owners had serious complaints when the ABS would completely release the brakes when the bike would hit a bump coming up to a stop, even if ABS shouldn't have been engaged, causing a significant extension of stopping distance, sometimes far enough to put them into an intersection.

If you're engaging ABS, yes, the stopping distance will be longer. However, as I understand ABS is supposed to work (and correct me if I'm wrong), ABS should not be activating until there is actual tire lock, which means that an ABS bike has the same stopping potential of a non-ABS bike as long as you don't cross the threshold of the ABS intervention--if you crossed that threshold in a non-ABS bike, you'd have a locked tire, which does not stop you faster. The BMW issue sounds like bad software.

If I get a bike with ABS, I don't expect to ever trigger it.

 

[Z3n]

If you're engaging ABS, yes, the stopping distance will be longer. However, as I understand ABS is supposed to work (and correct me if I'm wrong), ABS should not be activating until there is actual tire lock, which means that an ABS bike has the same stopping potential of a non-ABS bike as long as you don't cross the threshold of the ABS intervention--if you crossed that threshold in a non-ABS bike, you'd have a locked tire, which does not stop you faster. The BMW issue sounds like bad software.

If I get a bike with ABS, I don't expect to ever trigger it.

Correct. But the problem is that there is a cycle time and in a situation where the bike would slip slightly and regain traction (say, over a painted line), you can just let it lock and regain traction almost instantly. The tire squeals for a second, locks, and then regains traction. You may have to let off the brakes slightly, but you can maintain threshold braking almost the entire time. The ABS will release pressure and then reapply the brakes after it cycles...in the relatively short cycle time you can still travel quite a bit of distance, and that's not counting if it disengages the brake enough to throw off the weight distribution and reduce your overall available traction on the front, forcing you to wait until weight transfers forward again before you can maximizing braking.

 

[Burning1]

A number of BMW owners had serious complaints when the ABS would completely release the brakes when the bike would hit a bump coming up to a stop, even if ABS shouldn't have been engaged, causing a significant extension of stopping distance, sometimes far enough to put them into an intersection.

That was an issue specific to the F800ST. An over zealous routine would mistake the rear wheel hitting a bump for a stoppie, and release some pressure on the front brakes. Very disappointing issue, and many owners are unhappy about the way BMW handled it.

Do I think ABS is good? Absolutely. Is it better than a human rider yet? There are some situations where it's highly unlikely that ABS will ever be able to beat a human rider, at least until ABS can realize that sometimes a little sliding can be a good thing...see the study I linked for a good example of it.

Away from the race track, can you think of any realistic situation where am extra 3 feet stopping distance is going to have a life or death impact on the rider?

There are many many situations where ABS can and will save lives. In a non ideal world, having ABS if available seems like a no-brainier to me.

ABS simply allows people to drive and ride like they're playing a video game- simply mash the brakes as hard as you can, and let the magic vehicle do the rest.:rolleyes

I have yet to meet a single person who uses their ABS equipped brakes in the manner you describe.