2015 AFM Rnd 3 Thunderhill - Sun Race Nv 450 SB Crash

[andrewhsu]

Approaching turn 10, grabbed a handful of brake, down-shifted into 5th, tipped it in, and found myself sliding to the dirt.

https://youtu.be/xN5qFTLRO8o?t=11m25s

Race was red-flagged (sorry about that) and I got to see the inside of Chico trauma center for the first time (first time visiting Chico as well). Doctor says slight fracture on my clavicle and a dislocation. No need for surgery. I'm OK and I was able to drive all the way back to the south bay that afternoon without issue. Still working a heavily bruised knee but in general I'm not too sore.

I was braking quite hard and I think I locked the front wheel as I was turning in which I believe is the cause of the crash. Curious to get other people's thoughts?

Would anybody behind me at that race also have footage? Looking for skid marks or something if it can show up on video.

 

[shouldnthave]

Glad to hear you're alright. Awful lot of red flags that weekend.

Looks to me that you just overcooked it after turn in. It's always a better idea to try and get 90% of your braking done before turn in, and just that last bit to the apex.

 

[FourThreeSix]

Definitely looks like some front wheel lockage. I'm not on the brakes nearly as hard through there because it rises a bit before you actually get to the turn. You can use your downshift(s) and the elevation change to slow you down a bit before you even need to touch the brake.

Sucks about the injuries though. Nurse that shoulder and good luck with sleeping for the next week or so. Hope to see you back out there soon!

 

[KazMan]

Glad you are relatively ok Andrew. You were riding well this weekend. Hope to see you back in the mix soon!

 

[ZXR400SP]

You were still almost straight up and down, seems like an odd crash to me

 

[EastBayDave]

looked like you might'a got a tow from the other guys, so you were a bit fast closing speed on the corner & other riders. You braked a hair too late, & when you noticed faster than usual closing speed, you went from standard braking to a "stab" of extremely hard braking. Likely momentary locking & folding the front...

The unusual closing speed I think tips this off....

 

[Corey]

Why does that bike in front of you #117 on the start have a flashing taillight?

You will recover and race again. Glad you are OK.

 

[MZarra]

Why does that bike in front of you on the start have a flashing taillight?

It was an electric bike. I really did not like the flashing light.

 

[micahpearlman]

It was an electric bike. I really did not like the flashing light.

Yeah, that flashing light was incredibly distracting. Is that legal to run?

 

[ithaca00]

looked like you might'a got a tow from the other guys, so you were a bit fast closing speed on the corner & other riders. You braked a hair too late, & when you noticed faster than usual closing speed, you went from standard braking to a "stab" of extremely hard braking. Likely momentary locking & folding the front...

The unusual closing speed I think tips this off....

I'll second this.

Andrew - your crash let me get back into the race after a mechanical failure. Only to be crashed out on lap 3 of the restart. Ha. I saw you and the FLAP guys in the medical office when I was getting help from them. I speak from experience when i say that the collar bone sucks to break. Heal up quick!

 

[ACA]

You were still almost straight up and down, seems like an odd crash to me

Agree. How hard did you turn in?

Also, way to save it in turn 1!

 

[andrewhsu]

Glad to hear you're alright. Awful lot of red flags that weekend.

Looks to me that you just overcooked it after turn in. It's always a better idea to try and get 90% of your braking done before turn in, and just that last bit to the apex.

Ya, I heard there were a few helicopter rides that afternoon as well.

Definitely looks like some front wheel lockage. I'm not on the brakes nearly as hard through there because it rises a bit before you actually get to the turn. You can use your downshift(s) and the elevation change to slow you down a bit before you even need to touch the brake.

Sucks about the injuries though. Nurse that shoulder and good luck with sleeping for the next week or so. Hope to see you back out there soon!

Thanks! Pain not so bad when I am lying down or still. Going to see the doctor on Thursday about my left knee swollen. Abnormally large and difficult to bend.

Glad you are relatively ok Andrew. You were riding well this weekend. Hope to see you back in the mix soon!

Cool, thanks! I saw R3s doing well on the weekend, too. I plan on skipping the next round and returning on round 5 at Sonoma.

You were still almost straight up and down, seems like an odd crash to me

Yes, it happened quite quick at the initial point of my turn-in. That is my theory as to the locked front. If the front was sliding and I tilt the bike for the turn then I envision it is like tipping the bike over in the garage. The bike would fall over quickly.

looked like you might'a got a tow from the other guys, so you were a bit fast closing speed on the corner & other riders. You braked a hair too late, & when you noticed faster than usual closing speed, you went from standard braking to a "stab" of extremely hard braking. Likely momentary locking & folding the front...

The unusual closing speed I think tips this off....

I'll admit that I was trying to catch up to the two in front. Perhaps I need to work my mentality for riding the ride that I know are the safe limits of my ability instead of pushing unknown boundaries for the first time during the race.

Why does that bike in front of you #117 on the start have a flashing taillight?

You will recover and race again. Glad you are OK.

Thanks!

It was an electric bike. I really did not like the flashing light.

I didn't mind the blinking so much. It really stood out and reminded me he was an electric bike. If there were more than one bike on the track with different blinking speeds I might go nuts.

Yeah, that flashing light was incredibly distracting. Is that legal to run?

I dunno. Just checked the rulebook and it only mentions electric bikes are, "required to comply with the tech and safety requirements of TTXGP as well as any AFM specific requirements as determined by the AFM Chief of Tech." No mention on blinking.

I'll second this.

Andrew - your crash let me get back into the race after a mechanical failure. Only to be crashed out on lap 3 of the restart. Ha. I saw you and the FLAP guys in the medical office when I was getting help from them. I speak from experience when i say that the collar bone sucks to break. Heal up quick!

Thanks! Collar bone only has minor fracture. Not much pain for me, luckily.

I saw a posted video of your bump. Hope you're ok. Looks like you narrowly missed more serious contact: https://youtu.be/6i_SVx4OD7A?t=5m42s

Agree. How hard did you turn in?

Also, way to save it in turn 1!

I wasn't turning in any excessively forceful manner that I believe. I kinda wish I had something that could give me more data about my bike. Stuff like steering stem angle, lean angle, wheel rotation speed, brake pressure, etc. with millisecond granularity so I can line it up with video footage. Not necessarily for onboard info, but more for post-race analysis so that I'm not distracted during the race and so I can learn from mistakes.

 

[andrewhsu]

I just wanted to clarify: I very much appreciate the time that people took to give me feedback. My desires for accessible data and technology is just me daydreaming.

 

[synfinatic]

Your crash reminds me a lot of one I had in T11 many years ago riding my 748. I downshifted, but ended up getting a false neutral and over compensated with the brakes. Lost the front as soon as I tipped it in.

 

[Holeshot]

Looks like you transferred weight too quickly and lost front tire traction. That's not saying the front tire locked. Remember how small the front tire contact patch is before you apply the brakes.

 

[MZarra]

This is BARF so you will get more answers than you have questions

Watching it a few times and slowed it down a bit here is my opinion (as valuable as the rest):

1. You got on the brakes later and hotter. Nothing wrong with that. Looked great.
2. You tipped in at your normal point, also good.

Where I think the "mistake" was: I believe you were still on the brakes "100%". As in, when you initiated your tip in to the corner you did not let off the brakes a small amount.

My guess is that straight up and down you were fine and you were probably close to the maximum braking of that tire, in those conditions, etc. But when you added lean angle you exceeded the grip of the tire.

Had you let off the brakes 20% or so and then gradually let them off towards the apex you would have held your grip and made the corner.

 

[andrewhsu]

I think I found what I was looking for. Here is an animated GIF snippet of the 2 seconds during my crash. I started the animation after I had already initiated the braking so the forks are already compressed:

Generated from original youtube upload: https://youtu.be/xN5qFTLRO8o?t=11m30s

Notice there are not too many crazy tire marks near the right line on the right. I also started the animation with a small perpendicular white line about to exit the bottom of the screen. It's hard to catch but it is there. I also end the animation with a larger, more prominent perpendicular white line about to exit the bottom of the screen near the middle of the frame.

Now here is an animated GIF from lap 1 of the restart race immediately following my crash:

Generated from original youtube upload: https://youtu.be/38hEAeqKblI?t=1m50s

I tried to create the animation during the same section of the track using the perpendicular white lines along the right side as markers.

You'll see a prominent black tire mark and three parallel white scrapes where I make initial impact.

I believe this shows me I was skidding the tire and did not really have traction (as opposed to isolated spot of oil). That, in combination of not letting off the brakes when I initiated turn-in (which I think I was doing) prevented the front wheel from regaining traction when the bike wanted to change direction.

Conclusion: don't lock the front and turn at the same time

 

[andrewhsu]

This is BARF so you will get more answers than you have questions

Watching it a few times and slowed it down a bit here is my opinion (as valuable as the rest):

1. You got on the brakes later and hotter. Nothing wrong with that. Looked great.
2. You tipped in at your normal point, also good.

Where I think the "mistake" was: I believe you were still on the brakes "100%". As in, when you initiated your tip in to the corner you did not let off the brakes a small amount.

My guess is that straight up and down you were fine and you were probably close to the maximum braking of that tire, in those conditions, etc. But when you added lean angle you exceeded the grip of the tire.

Had you let off the brakes 20% or so and then gradually let them off towards the apex you would have held your grip and made the corner.

Ya, I think this is pretty spot on to what happened. :thumbup

 

[Holeshot]

Conclusion: don't lock the front and turn at the same time

And how do you do that?

 

[Jello_Biafra]

What kind of bike is this? I can't even fathom locking the front while straight up and down unless you stabbed the shit out of the lever. Even then it would be bizarre.