No license... an invitation to a :rose.

Gabe said:

This post would make me angry if it wasn't obvious how little you know about the subject. Your cousin would not have passed the course at my range. And the CC Rider curriculum hasn't been used for 7 years. And where are you supposed to teach people basic bike control if not on a range? Sears Point?

I taught two classes yesterday. Five riders out of the 21 that started didn't finish. Not quite "anyone and everyone," eh?

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Hmmm damn. Has it been that long? Ok so 7 years ago excuse me. Still ok u teach them how to go stop and turn. Ohh yea and how to start a bike all on a closed course. No traffic no pot holes. No gravel. No speed over 25 mph. So yaaayyyyy u pass a class and get your license. Then strap your ass to a real bike not a 150 or 250cc cruiser and then u wonder y people crash. My cousin to this day has her m1 license and can't ride any motorcycle. I talked to a former instructor of MSf and he told me the state is pushing you guys to pass people. So in turn more m1 licenses meaning more motorcycle sales= more tax and registration meaning more $ for our beautiful state. I think I'm more than capable of doin your job so don't try to say I don't know enough on the sunbject.

After I took my MSF course I went to the DMV and they handed me a license. Was I ready to roll? fuck no. I didn't know how to ride worth shit... I got myself a bike and taught myself how to ride it on my own. Most people in my class, I was surprised that they passed the course, none of them could actually take off without stalling at least a couple of times.
All I got out of the course was that I could point out where the shifter, clutch, rear brake, etc were on a bike. Oh, and how to start it and ride it 25mph in a straight line.

sksksks said:

After I took my MSF course I went to the DMV and they handed me a license. Was I ready to roll? fuck no. I didn't know how to ride worth shit... I got myself a bike and taught myself how to ride it on my own.

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That is all the course is designed to do. It doesn't say in teh course that when you're done, you will be "ready to roll". It says that you will have learned enough to go out and practice on your own. The certificate only tells the DMV that you have displayed a certain level of competence on the bike, which happens to be more than you actually need to know to pass the real dmv riding test. If you want to complain, complain about the miserably low amount of proficiency a person is required to have before they are blessed by the state to operate a vehicle on the road.

sksksks said:

All I got out of the course was that I could point out where the shifter, clutch, rear brake, etc were on a bike. Oh, and how to start it and ride it 25mph in a straight line.

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You passed, but you didn't "get out of the class" how to negotiate a corner, stop reasonably quickly, swerve, and do a couple of u-turns? Interesting, since those are precisely the things you need to "get" in order to pass.




One (On Topic) thing that I don't think has been mentioned. The state has begun sending notices to registered owners of motorcycles who do not have an M1, letting them know that they are going to be HEAVILY FINED, and if they are pulled over, THEIR BIKE WILL BE IMPOUNDED. We have already had several students sign up for our classes because of these notices. Hopefully it helps.

One (On Topic) thing that I don't think has been mentioned. The state has begun sending notices to registered owners of motorcycles who do not have an M1, letting them know that they are going to be HEAVILY FINED, and if they are pulled over, THEIR BIKE WILL BE IMPOUNDED. We have already had several students sign up for our classes because of these notices. Hopefully it helps.

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It's about frickin' time.



Gabe, I think that we only have anecdotal evidence on the tiered licensing topic because there have been few (maybe no) studies. In one case, there are countries that do it. And in the other we have those that don't. In the United States, where the all-mighty dollar rules the government, you'll have several industries throwing millions of dollars at our legislators to defeat even the thought of appropriating some cash to conduct such a study. You won't have to look too closely to see that a lot of the money will come from the "motorcycle rights groups" which are supposed to be looking out for our best interests.

wicked_900rr said:

Hmmm damn. Has it been that long? Ok so 7 years ago excuse me. Still ok u teach them how to go stop and turn. Ohh yea and how to start a bike all on a closed course. No traffic no pot holes. No gravel. No speed over 25 mph. So yaaayyyyy u pass a class and get your license. Then strap your ass to a real bike not a 150 or 250cc cruiser and then u wonder y people crash. My cousin to this day has her m1 license and can't ride any motorcycle. I talked to a former instructor of MSf and he told me the state is pushing you guys to pass people. So in turn more m1 licenses meaning more motorcycle sales= more tax and registration meaning more $ for our beautiful state. I think I'm more than capable of doin your job so don't try to say I don't know enough on the sunbject.

Click to expand...

sksksks said:

After I took my MSF course I went to the DMV and they handed me a license. Was I ready to roll? fuck no. I didn't know how to ride worth shit... I got myself a bike and taught myself how to ride it on my own. Most people in my class, I was surprised that they passed the course, none of them could actually take off without stalling at least a couple of times.
All I got out of the course was that I could point out where the shifter, clutch, rear brake, etc were on a bike. Oh, and how to start it and ride it 25mph in a straight line.

Click to expand...

Back when I started riding, there WAS no MSF. My experience on a street bike consisted of a few laps around the track at school, where I learned to turn left and shift. I promptly proceeded to go out and buy a KX250 2-stroke motocross race bike whose owner was selling it because he had crashed on it and spent a month in a coma. I then proceeded to crash the shit out of that bike at Carnegie before finally learning how to ride. A year later I bought my first street bike, with literally NO experience on an actual street AT ALL.
I had NO ONE teach me any basics, and had to learn by trial and error. My learning curve would not have been nearly as flat had I been able to take MSF.
The MSF teaches you the basics, should you decide to pay attention and apply yourself. It is then YOUR responsibility to go out and apply what you've been taught and GET EXPERIENCE. No one can TEACH you EXPERIENCE. And we ALL have a friend who took a class on something, passed it- barely- and had no ability to RETAIN what they learned. To blame that on MSF is ridiculous.
Over the last couple of years, I have led a LOT of newbie rides. I've seen a difference in riders who took MSF and those who just passed the DMV test.
Those who took the MSF had a little more on the ball than those who didn't.
The MSF gives you the foundation to build a lifetime of riding on. But it's YOUR responsibility to do the building!

wicked_900rr said:

Hmmm damn. Has it been that long? Ok so 7 years ago excuse me. Still ok u teach them how to go stop and turn. Ohh yea and how to start a bike all on a closed course. No traffic no pot holes. No gravel. No speed over 25 mph. So yaaayyyyy u pass a class and get your license. Then strap your ass to a real bike not a 150 or 250cc cruiser and then u wonder y people crash. My cousin to this day has her m1 license and can't ride any motorcycle. I talked to a former instructor of MSf and he told me the state is pushing you guys to pass people. So in turn more m1 licenses meaning more motorcycle sales= more tax and registration meaning more $ for our beautiful state. I think I'm more than capable of doin your job so don't try to say I don't know enough on the sunbject.

Click to expand...

We teach the basic skills needed to safely operate a motorcycle at posted speed limits on public roads. New riders need to practice more before they go out and ride, and we tell them that. I guarantee you couldn't do my job without the 6-12 months of training it requires.

If there is some "push to pass people," I didn't get that memo. Individual school operators may pass people so they don't have to waste class space letting people take the course over again, but I have never been pressured by anybody to pass students who shouldn't pass. I have failed dozens of people in 9 months of coaching.

The BRC is not intended to be an all-encompassing riding academy. That would cost much more money and Americans wouldn't stand for it. Would you, 7 years ago, have voluntarily taken a 2-week, $2500 class (like what's mandatory in Germany, for instance)?

If the BRC is dumbed down it's because (I hate to say it) Americans are kind of dumb. We want to train as many people as possible with very limited resources. Like everything the government has a hand in, it's a compromise.

I invite you to come and observe what we do and how much the students learn.

Gixxergirl1000 said:

The MSF teaches you the basics, should you decide to pay attention and apply yourself. It is then YOUR responsibility to go out and apply what you've been taught and GET EXPERIENCE. No one can TEACH you EXPERIENCE. And we ALL have a friend who took a class on something, passed it- barely- and had no ability to RETAIN what they learned. To blame that on MSF is ridiculous.
Over the last couple of years, I have led a LOT of newbie rides. I've seen a difference in riders who took MSF and those who just passed the DMV test.
Those who took the MSF had a little more on the ball than those who didn't.
The MSF gives you the foundation to build a lifetime of riding on. But it's YOUR responsibility to do the building!

Click to expand...

Exactly. A basic course that has to cram quite a lot into a tiny time alotment.

But even as tiny as it has to be, it sure beats the crap out of no instruction and the so called instruction given by someone that is delusional.
All the sorry options we had, until MSF came along.

I don't know how the idea came about that the basic starter courses taught you how to ride. Would anyone think a First Aid course taught you how to be a Heart Surgeon?

MSF works well for people that have worked at learning in the rest of their life, and this gives them the solid base to start learning in this Sport.

If a person is a professional idiot, they can mask it well enough to slip through, because that is their way of life.

That isn't the Schools fault.

louemc said:

That isn't the Schools fault.

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QFT

It take 6 to 12 months of training to teach someone to learn how to turn a bike on. Find the friction zone shift through the gears learn how to stop the motorcycle and stress that they look way into a turn before taking it??? And I'm the dumb one? I passed the cc riders class with a perfect score of 0. U were allowed 20 pts at the time to pass this course. I did it at the age of 15. And your trying to tell me an experienced rider that has Owned multiple bike and hast put over 150k miles on my bikes that I won't be able to pass your class. Sir I can do it on one wheel u pick front or back. Or would u prefer I drag knee all over your parking lot? U guys are barely teaching riders how a bike works. And just two days of seat time isn't enough to gain a m1 license. I think your course should be at least 4 weekends long instead of one even if it would cost 500 bucks. I only paid 75 dollars at the time to take mine. I'm not sitting here saying u don't teach anything. I'm saying you guys in my opinion don't teach enough. I'd say a couple weekends in that parking lot would be good. Then maybe take them out in the streets for a couple days too following you.

Nick..

I agree it could be better.. and other countries do more.

I too fell into the no training available past. Heck there was nothing.. not even a trackday available. I did my time on mini bikes,dirt bikes and when I hit 15-1/2 I went and got my permit. With my basic skills getting the M1 was a breeze.

I was not a seasoned rider.. yeah.. I could ride pretty good, but my street skillz were poor. I was not up on what kinds of crashes motorcyclist could get into.. I just knew crashing sucked and I wanted to avoid it. I still did it a couple of times.

I think expecting the CMSP course to create a good rider is foolish.

I think expecting the CMSP course to give them a shot at a continuing education on becoming a good rider is what is hoped for. There are lots of options on how to do that now.

CMSP / License step 1.. this is more than a 12 step program..:teeth

All my friends (mostly re-entry riders) have learned quite a bit from the course and also got some respect of the road. They have lots of steps to go thru to be a solid motorcyclist.

:smoking

budman said:

Nick..

I agree it could be better.. and other countries do more.

I too fell into the no training available past. Heck there was nothing.. not even a trackday available. I did my time on mini bikes,dirt bikes and when I hit 15-1/2 I went and got my permit. With my basic skills getting the M1 was a breeze.

I was not a seasoned rider.. yeah.. I could ride pretty good, but my street skillz were poor. I was not up on what kinds of crashes motorcyclist could get into.. I just knew crashing sucked and I wanted to avoid it. I still did it a couple of times.

I think expecting the CMSP course to create a good rider is foolish.

I think expecting the CMSP course to give them a shot at a continuing education on becoming a good rider is what is hoped for. There are lots of options on how to do that now.

CMSP / License step 1.. this is more than a 12 step program..:teeth

All my friends (mostly re-entry riders) have learned quite a bit from the course and also got some respect of the road. They have lots of steps to go thru to be a solid motorcyclist.

:smoking

Click to expand...

I agree. I still think the program is too short. And not enough is learned.

wicked_900rr said:

I agree. I still think the program is too short. And not enough is learned.

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I actually agree with you, but the problem doesn't lie with the MSF, it's the lazy and impulsive nature of the American public.

wicked_900rr said:

It take 6 to 12 months of training to teach someone to learn how to turn a bike on. Find the friction zone shift through the gears learn how to stop the motorcycle and stress that they look way into a turn before taking it??? And I'm the dumb one? I passed the cc riders class with a perfect score of 0. U were allowed 20 pts at the time to pass this course. I did it at the age of 15. And your trying to tell me an experienced rider that has Owned multiple bike and hast put over 150k miles on my bikes that I won't be able to pass your class. Sir I can do it on one wheel u pick front or back. Or would u prefer I drag knee all over your parking lot? U guys are barely teaching riders how a bike works. And just two days of seat time isn't enough to gain a m1 license. I think your course should be at least 4 weekends long instead of one even if it would cost 500 bucks. I only paid 75 dollars at the time to take mine. I'm not sitting here saying u don't teach anything. I'm saying you guys in my opinion don't teach enough. I'd say a couple weekends in that parking lot would be good. Then maybe take them out in the streets for a couple days too following you.

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Nick, I never said you were dumb, nor did I assuage your riding abilities. You wrote that you could teach the course yourself and I know that you can't without training as a RiderCoach.

Once again, all the BRC is for is to teach the basics of safe operation of a motorcycle, and we do it very well. I have turned many, many people from total novices--never even sat on a motorcycle--to people who could safely pilot a motorcycle enough so they can practice their skills more. That's how our system works.

You didn't answer my question: would you have paid over $1000 to take a riding course when you were 15 1/2? It's $75 for teens because the State sets that amount. Adults pay $250, so 4-week course would cost well over $1000 (especially if you want to add a street-riding component). Since training isn't mandatory, people would just do what they did in the old days: teach themselves how to ride.

The MSF is adding more advanced courses to its cirricula, which you'll start seeing next year. Of course, they can't teach you anything because you're SO DAMN GOOD!!!!

I would pay it. I know your gonna say well that's easy to say now. But if u really can teach a person how to "ride" ride for 1000 bucks so they can properly operate a bike. Wouldn't you say it's worth it? Or u can pay the 250 and barely learn how to operate a motorcycle and end up crashing if not killing yourself in a short amount of time. I'd go with the 1000bucks and actually have someone that knows what they're doing take the time to teach me how to properly handle a motorcycle on dry and on wet roads. Idk that's just my opinion. Nowadays I see way to many squids out riding around that just passed there msf class and crash bad within a month later cause they didn't know how to handle their bikes.

boney said:

It's about frickin' time.



Gabe, I think that we only have anecdotal evidence on the tiered licensing topic because there have been few (maybe no) studies. In one case, there are countries that do it. And in the other we have those that don't. In the United States, where the all-mighty dollar rules the government, you'll have several industries throwing millions of dollars at our legislators to defeat even the thought of appropriating some cash to conduct such a study. You won't have to look too closely to see that a lot of the money will come from the "motorcycle rights groups" which are supposed to be looking out for our best interests.

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We are supposed to be proponents of safety while representing a culture of independence. I have mixed feelings about the government protecting us from ourselves. Seatbelts, helmets, riding in the back of pick up trucks, no smoking, what's next?

Truth be told, I would rather see governement money be awarded to motorcycle safety groups in the form of grants to promote moto safety and at least get every rider through an MSF course. But to start fining owners of motos who don't have M1's is short sighted as usual. :rolleyes

Riding, just like driving is a previlige... not a right. The thing is the government has made it 'TOO' accessible that it doesn't take much to get licensed in the US.

I'm not saying one should charge an arm and a leg to get one, but at least make the procedure a bit more comprehensive and up to date... also make it compulsory to learn it.

moto vader said:

We are supposed to be proponents of safety while representing a culture of independence. I have mixed feelings about the government protecting us from ourselves. Seatbelts, helmets, riding in the back of pick up trucks, no smoking, what's next?

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I too have a problem with lots of the laws governing safety. However, operating a vehicle in the state of California requires that you are properly licensed to operate said vehicle. In exchange for proving you have the very basic skills to operate it, the State grants you permission to use the roads, and a card that proves it.

moto vader said:

Truth be told, I would rather see governement money be awarded to motorcycle safety groups in the form of grants to promote moto safety and at least get every rider through an MSF course. But to start fining owners of motos who don't have M1's is short sighted as usual.

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Should we re-hash the argument that if you don't have an M1 you're not licensed to operate a motorcycle on the roads in California? Last time I checked (granted it's been a while) if you didn't comply with the above licensing requirements, it was a fine and/or impoundment of said vehicle.

Clearly, the state is looking for money and has decided to enforce the laws that are currently on the books. Everyone who doesn't have an M1 has been getting away with breaking the law, and the DMV says "not any more." We should consider ourselves lucky that they decided to give us a head's up!

wicked_900rr said:

I would pay it. I know your gonna say well that's easy to say now. But if u really can teach a person how to "ride" ride for 1000 bucks so they can properly operate a bike. Wouldn't you say it's worth it? Or u can pay the 250 and barely learn how to operate a motorcycle and end up crashing if not killing yourself in a short amount of time. I'd go with the 1000bucks and actually have someone that knows what they're doing take the time to teach me how to properly handle a motorcycle on dry and on wet roads. Idk that's just my opinion. Nowadays I see way to many squids out riding around that just passed there msf class and crash bad within a month later cause they didn't know how to handle their bikes.

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So then I'm assuming you've been to the California Superbike School to learn how to "ride", right? So you can really learn how to ride from people who actually know how to ride?
And those squids who crash a month after passing MSF are generally not using good judgement... they're on bikes they don't have the skills or experience to be able to effectively control... on roads they don't have the skills or experience to be riding... at speeds they don't have the skills or experience to handle.
I think it's both wrong and does a lot of harm to blame MSF instead of the riders for their crashes. Newbs or Squids riding over their heads should be held accountable for their bad judgment. And either they learn to ride, or they quit, or- sadly- they get dead. And most of the time, that's on THEM. Which is a real tragedy, because it didn't have to be that way.

I think there will be a legal challenge to the "owners" of motorcycles who are fined as non M1 class license holders. An owner can be a non operator.

An M1 is not going to save someone from themselves just like a driver's license doesnt save the public from DUI drivers. I don't equate DUI driving to driving without an M1, simply that one is gross negligence, while the other is regulatory subversion.

You are talking about proper training and regulation.

If someone operates in violation of Section 12500(a) VC, they will not likely get their vehicle towed even though it is a misdemeanor. It is also a correctable infraction.
Are you suggesting that all 12500(a) violations, including all license classifications get their vehicles impounded upon violation? This makes no sense. Revenue from vehicle impound goes to tow companies, not the State.

So.... there has to be a happy medium. I say, mandatory MSF for those who apply for their M1 and leave it at that. No need to sanction everyone. Just simply start enforcing the M1 requirement on the street via 12500(a) VC. Multiple offenders get their licenses yanked and they are now subjected to 14601 VC which WILL get their vehicle impounded.

iehawk said:

Riding, just like driving is a previlige... not a right.

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I call :bs

Every legal resident and citizen of California has a right to operate a motor vehicle, so long as they meet the legal requirements to do so and do not break the law (heh, heh). Your argument would have more traction if our governments provided viable public transportation for more than a few places. But as it stands, not allowing people to drive, in most places, puts a burden far beyond the revocation of other "privileges" like maybe drinking alcohol or gambling.

We as US citizens legally have a right to do what we please so long as there is no law against it: so we have a "right" to do anything, in theory, unless that right is restricted or revoked. A privilege according to Webster is a "a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor ; especially : such a right or immunity attached specifically to a position or an office."

There is nothing special about the right to drive a car. We can do it so long as we meet the legal requirements. If you are right, then gun ownership is a privilege as well, and you really don't want to say that on this forum...

If driving were a privilege, then why does the state subsidize insurance for under privileged?

Why can't I ever spell privilege correctly