boney
Miles > Posts
Agreed. I'll just note that learning "one useful thing" is far better than learning "nothing at all."
No license... an invitation to a :rose.
- Thread starter budman
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Agreed. I'll just note that learning "one useful thing" is far better than learning "nothing at all."
DaveT319
Marquez FTW
Yeah, no one ever said the MSF is "sufficient training", but it's certainly better than nothing. I tell EVERYONE who is planning to ride to take the MSF rather than just get their permit and "learn" on their own before taking the lollipop. Should there be something more and "better" than the MSF? Sure. But until there is, I'd rather they take the MSF than not.
Dave
Dave
911NeverForget
Well-known member
You I personally think the very most dangerous/accident prone thing on the road are those little scooters people ride around. No special liscense, just hop on. I guess they are small and slow enough not to be fatal, but I have seen at least 4 wrecks with my own eyes since september. Its only a matter of time until more people get those and start killing themselves.
About the demographic. There is absolutly NO way to stop young men from killing themselves. Join the military(thats like 25% suicidelol), fighting(once saw a guy get a broken neck from being punched in the face really hard), or whatever they find to do. Par cours(wtf), jumping off tall shit? Modern technology is just a means to an end. Thins the gene pool! (though we can't get better if only 50% of the population are practicing these skills.)
About the demographic. There is absolutly NO way to stop young men from killing themselves. Join the military(thats like 25% suicidelol), fighting(once saw a guy get a broken neck from being punched in the face really hard), or whatever they find to do. Par cours(wtf), jumping off tall shit? Modern technology is just a means to an end. Thins the gene pool! (though we can't get better if only 50% of the population are practicing these skills.)
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boney
Miles > Posts
Are you referring to the recent trend of modified Mopes running rampant in traffic? Those are motorized bicycles, and you're right, they don't require a license. They will thin their own herd quick enough.
HappyHighwayman
Warning: Do Not Engage
I notice riders on their 250cc scooters, half helmets, wearing business clothes and dress shoes, tend to be more agressive in heavy city traffic than I am even will to be in my 650cc. They pull moves without hesitation that I deem "not worth the risk".
Strangely enough I see more moped riders wearing full helmets and proper jackets than most scooter riders, though your mileage may vary, and all of this is anecdotal.
Strangely enough I see more moped riders wearing full helmets and proper jackets than most scooter riders, though your mileage may vary, and all of this is anecdotal.
reidconti
Well-known member
Why not?
I took private driver's ed when I was 15. They taught me a lot about looking ahead, accident statistics, etc etc. But they honestly didn't teach me much about how to operate the car itself. Yes, plenty of on-the-road training. But they didn't teach me about how to control a skid, proper cornering technique, how to drive a manual transmission, any of that.
I took my road knowledge with me into MSF, where they taught me far more about physically operating a motorcycle than Driver's Ed ever taught me about physically operating a car.
Gixxergirl1000
AFM #731
Some of us do what we can to help Newbies get a little experience under their belts. I do Newbie group rides from Spring through Fall. I make it a point to let them know I'm willing to ride one-on-one with them, and have made that offer more times than I care to count on this forum. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of new riders aren't always willing to make the effort to actively learn to be better riders. :dunno I guess they figure if they manage to get from point A to point B, log a few thousand miles and only toss their bike two or three times, they're doing it right.
All I can do is continue offering the Newbie Rides, and be willing to help. But like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
MSF will put you on a bike in a controlled environment, and teach you the basics of controlling a motorcycle. Beyond that, it is the prospective rider's responsibility to purchase an appropriate bike for his skill level, read training material, sign up for something like Z2's Road Rider course (next step beyond MSF). If you want a long, pain-free riding career spanning decades and tens of thousands of miles without crashing, then educate yourself, and don't ride over your head.
Twenty-something guys with testosterone poisoning on race replica bikes are pretty much accidents waiting to happen. Statistics tend to support that. Tiered licensing would certainly cut down on those statistics.
Gabe
COVID-fefe
But where o where can you find Maynard's monthly column?
Gabe
COVID-fefe
Can you cite one study to support that contention?
georgelass
Intrastink
I didn't take driver's ed or the MSF course.
But I had parents that taught me some common sense.
But I had parents that taught me some common sense.
How much can barf do???
We are not a training facility.. we don't charge you to be a member.. but we care about the sport and our fellow riders..so we do what we can.
If I was Bill Gates.. you would have it.. or if Bill Gates was a contributor.. you would have it..
:smoking
Gixxergirl1000
AFM #731
I dunno, Gabe... 20 year old guy on a Gixxer1000, or 20 year old guy on a Ninja 2-fiddy... my money's on the 2-fiddy having a better chance at keeping Junior upright and alive. 150hp vs. 27hp. And since I own one of each, and have had a chance to jump back and forth between the two at the track, I feel very comfortable in saying that generally, one's ability to get into trouble on the Ninjette is... limited.
Gabe
COVID-fefe
Yes, I agree, and it seems like good old common sense to me. But common sense is generally a weak tool to craft public policy. Not long ago it was "common sense" in California that black people shouldn't get married to white people. And so we had a law that said just that until 1967.
You didn't say "I think tiered licensing would probably cut down motorcycle fatalities." You said "Tiered licensing would certainly cut down on those statistics," as if it's a proven-by-evidence fact, like fluoride reducing tooth decay or smoking causing cancer. So again, what evidence do you have to support this contention? It's my experience that there is none outside of anecdotal. But didn't Data Dan address this?
Gixxergirl1000
AFM #731
Uhh.... 150hp vs 27hp, compared to "I'm an ignorant deep-south mother-lovin' cousin-fuckin' knuckle-draggin' terra cotta toothed inbred racist sumbitch who thinks blacks and whites should never marry each other"???
Ninja vs Gixxer is absolutely common sense, as well as my own personal "anecdotal" experience in owning one of each. How blacks not marrying whites plays into the scenario leaves me a little lost, as it was never "common sense", but racism held over from the days of slavery... :confused
But when I have the time, I will put my crappy-ass internet research skills to the test, and see what I can find... :laughing (do NOT hold your breath, I suck at internet research... :cry)
Gabe
COVID-fefe
What :confused es me is why you think I'm accusing you of racism. It's clear you totally missed my point.
You are absolutely wrong about racism being a relic of slavery and not being the common wisdom of the time. I recall we're about the same age, so we just missed the tail end of socially accepted racism in California. But segragated schools, churches, restaurants and even hospitals were the norm until the 1940s-60s. How could it be when slavery was never a legal institution in California? And the last time I checked, "ingnorant deep-south mother-lovin' cousin-fuckin' knuckle-draggin' terra cotta toothed (nice one!) inbred racist sumbitches" seldom vote, much less write and pass laws or run public institutions.
I'd also remind you that racism developed over the course of the 20th century, in every state in the Union. For instance, there were black people working in the White House and other federal jobs before the Wilson administration. He and his cabinet banned them from all jobs except kitchen and servant staff. Plessy v Ferguson was 1896. I recommend you read up on some history of race relations in the USA. You will find racial laws and conventions weren't the result of a tiny faction of crazy cousin-fuckers. They were instituted by the wealthiest, best-educated cream of society, and were overwhelmingly popular until the demographic changes of the 1950s and 60s.
So, let's not discuss that here anymore, and I'm sorry to go OT. But I do want to emphasize my point: common sense ain't that common, and is a poor way to make policy. In my mind operators of vehicles over 5000 pounds should need a special license and should have their vehicles restricted to 65 mph (and in fact, when I was enlisted, the US military restricted tactical vehicles to about 55-60). Seems sensible, as heavy vehicles, when driven aggressively tend to roll over and when they do crash, cause much more injury, damage and death to other road users. At least that's how it seems to me. But do the statistics bear my theory out? Maybe, maybe not. But I wouldn't propose a law--or be certain of such a law's effect--without that data.
iehawk
Well-known member
The problem is there's no standard in parenting. You're lucky you have good parents.
---
The smaller and lighter bike is easier to handle. The less horsepower means the bike won't jump if the right hand 'slip'. Some newbies get in trouble because they twist the throttle a little too much. Some just have no idea and some are just purely accidental. Maybe that's one of the arguments for the tiered system. You get to learn and get your right hand to get used to the throttle feel and be more sensitive on a less powered bike. The way I see it, I can have an accident while doing 70 MPH on a Vespa or a Ninja 250 and I'd still be hurt as bad as if I were on a Hayabusa doing 70 MPH.
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with tiered system.
What I want to share is, it seems that more and more people forget how to think and be logical and rational (just like what Rel said - quoted in my quote below). The problem with this is it compounds... where parents with lack of understanding will tend to have kids who will have the same problem. Add that with some people's disregard for others, well, I'll leave it at that.
Not having license pretty much means that person doesn't take riding seriously. He/she probably think it's just like riding a bicycle with a motor. Guess what? You actually do need a license for that. It's not enforced, nobody else really care... and here we are now.
One great thing about BARF is that we all can have this discussion here. Another, we have the Newbie Rides all throughout riding season organized here. Some even take the initiative being mentors in their own times.
Just have to spread the words and make more people realize how important it is to be licensed and learn how to ride properly. It's not just like riding a bicycle.
DataDan
Mama says he's bona fide
Gabe, for years I've looked for some kind of comparison that would shed light on the tiered motorcycle licensing question but haven't been able to find one. Even a UK/US fatality rate comparison--where licensing is just one of many uncontrolled variables--is ambiguous. At a point in the '90s our fatality rates were similar, but then motorcycling took off in popularity in the US and the influx of noobs pushed the US rate higher, whilst the UK rate stayed about the same.
There is actually a useful bit of evidence related to tiered driver's licenses for 16-17yos in the US. A few years ago the safety establishment trumpeted lower death rates in states that had adopted much stricter licensing requirements for the youngest drivers. But a close look at the data
nerd) revealed a more nuanced story. Fewer 16-17s were dying in those states, and the rate per population had dropped too. But the rate per licensed driver stayed about the same. My interpretation is that by creating a licensing process that was more difficult to navigate, they had reduced the number of licensed drivers, but they had not preferentially excluded bad drivers. The basket was smaller, but the percentage of bad apples in it was unchanged. That's part of what I would expect if we were to adopt a tiered motorcycle licensing system: Some people would be discouraged from taking up motorcycling due to the process, but those who endured it wouldn't necessarily be safer.One question underlying the tiered licensing issue is this: Can you train the stupid out of a prospective rider? I know you can overcome ignorance with training. But can classroom discussions and range drills turn those few reckless idiots into responsible riders who accept their own mortality and eschew potentially deadly risk while still enjoying occasional high-speed fun? My hunch is no. I have 3500 words on "The Potential and Limits of Training" here somewhere that I've never posted because it's such a controversial topic.
That said, I'm a huge fan of learning to ride on a small motorcycle. I started almost 30 years ago on a CB900F and a few years later got a Yamaha FZ750 (their Superbike entry at the time). But I didn't really learned to ride until I got my Hawk GT in the late '80s. There's just something about a small, light machine with an upright seating position that makes it easy to learn how to push the bike toward its limits.
Gixxergirl1000
AFM #731
Gabe, for years I've looked for some kind of comparison that would shed light on the tiered motorcycle licensing question but haven't been able to find one. Even a UK/US fatality rate comparison--where licensing is just one of many uncontrolled variables--is ambiguous. At a point in the '90s our fatality rates were similar, but then motorcycling took off in popularity in the US and the influx of noobs pushed the US rate higher, whilst the UK rate stayed about the same.
There is actually a useful bit of evidence related to tiered driver's licenses for 16-17yos in the US. A few years ago the safety establishment trumpeted lower death rates in states that had adopted much stricter licensing requirements for the youngest drivers. But a close look at the data
One question underlying the tiered licensing issue is this: Can you train the stupid out of a prospective rider? I know you can overcome ignorance with training. But can classroom discussions and range drills turn those few reckless idiots into responsible riders who accept their own mortality and eschew potentially deadly risk while still enjoying occasional high-speed fun? My hunch is no. I have 3500 words on "The Potential and Limits of Training" here somewhere that I've never posted because it's such a controversial topic.
That said, I'm a huge fan of learning to ride on a small motorcycle. I started almost 30 years ago on a CB900F and a few years later got a Yamaha FZ750 (their Superbike entry at the time). But I didn't really learned to ride until I got my Hawk GT in the late '80s. There's just something about a small, light machine with an upright seating position that makes it easy to learn how to push the bike toward its limits.
+1
And Gabe, I didn't say you were accusing me of racism.
And I would suggest that the roots of the racism in our country lies in the days of slavery, and perceptions that were prevalent in that time, being carried forward, and still being battled today. But anyone who's been to the Deep South can attest to the difference in mindsets there vs. here.
Try living there, as I did when I was a little kid.
wicked_900rr
Lalalalala
it also seems to me that these motorcycle training courses are passin anyone and everyone.. maybe we should start right there..... cause i have a cousin that passed what a bout 5/6 years ago. that did not know how to ride a bike at all... she would stall.. drop the bike for no good reason.. cant make a u turn if her life depended on it.. idk what they plan on teaching people in parking lots... msf is a joke.. i took the cc rider course when i was 15 and a half.. and couldnt believe how they passed some of the people that were there.. its rediculous
Gabe
COVID-fefe
This post would make me angry if it wasn't obvious how little you know about the subject. Your cousin would not have passed the course at my range. And the CC Rider curriculum hasn't been used for 7 years. And where are you supposed to teach people basic bike control if not on a range? Sears Point?
I taught two classes yesterday. Five riders out of the 21 that started didn't finish. Not quite "anyone and everyone," eh?