What's Luck Go To Do With It?

DataDan

Mama says he's bona fide
Good stuff, as usual, Dan. I find myself planted firmly in the fourth group, as well. I am a firm believer in constantly improving my skills, and in adopting safety technology (better gear, electronic aids, etc) as ways of reducing the effects of luck. It is still there, and is a variable which can be reduced considerably but never eliminated.
But there's more to it than skill to ride out of an "unlucky" encounter and gear to protect against the fall. That's how the third group deals with bad luck.

To reduce the role of luck, we must learn to spot unlucky encounters as they develop and not be there when they happen. The first few times a noob nearly gets sideswiped by a lane-changer is bad luck. When he learns how observation and positioning can prevent it, he's suddenly "luckier" as those incursions become less frequent.
 

JohnBoy

Making it up as I go
^ totally agree Danate. Mitigation is everything.

Also, my above use of 'dick' above is inappropriate. Crash analysis has great value, but so does discretion, depending.
 

afm199

Well-known member
Luck plays a larger role in our lives than anyone wants to admit. Were any of you born blind?

My last crash at Laguna Seca, I lowsided in the corkscrew, totally my fault. My friend Dave was right behind me, and couldn't avoid me. He braked hard right up to hitting me and then let go, and ran over my right leg. I "walked" away. Well I hobbled like a bastard, and rode my bike back into the pits. Leg hurt for quite a while. If he hadn't known to let off the brakes, I would have suffered a broken femur. If I had crashed a few millisecond different, he would have run over my stomach, pelvis or head. I doubt I would have walked away from that.

I was lucky. I knew it when he hit me and it didn't hurt much. I was yelling I was so happy.
 

Lunch Box

Useful idiot
But there's more to it than skill to ride out of an "unlucky" encounter and gear to protect against the fall. That's how the third group deals with bad luck.

To reduce the role of luck, we must learn to spot unlucky encounters as they develop and not be there when they happen. The first few times a noob nearly gets sideswiped by a lane-changer is bad luck. When he learns how observation and positioning can prevent it, he's suddenly "luckier" as those incursions become less frequent.

Perhaps I didn't express clearly enough what I meant by development of skills. Skills are not just the physical ability to make the moto do what you want it to do. Observational skills are just as important. Likewise, good decision making is important. I won't, for example, follow a pickup truck. Even if the bed looks empty, I know that there is a chance that something is going to come flying out at some point. I also seem to know that most drivers are going to do long before they do it. This comes from experience and observation.

In short, I do as much as I can to mitigate the effects of luck. Training, practice, observation, sound decision making, good protective gear, well maintained bikes, etc. all play a role.
 

afm199

Well-known member
Perhaps I didn't express clearly enough what I meant by development of skills. Skills are not just the physical ability to make the moto do what you want it to do. Observational skills are just as important. Likewise, good decision making is important. I won't, for example, follow a pickup truck. Even if the bed looks empty, I know that there is a chance that something is going to come flying out at some point. I also seem to know that most drivers are going to do long before they do it. This comes from experience and observation.

In short, I do as much as I can to mitigate the effects of luck. Training, practice, observation, sound decision making, good protective gear, well maintained bikes, etc. all play a role.

For sure. All of the above are important. We can mitigate circumstances to reduce potential danger, and to a large degree. Jeff Lee, who makes A&G sliders, has ridden maybe 750k miles with zero crashes. And he's a fast rider. He is meticulous. Never lane splits and is super careful on freeways. He treats freeways like combat zones.
 

HeatXfer

Not Erudite, just er
All this boils down to is experience. Just like Louis Pasture said, "Fortune Favors the Prepared Mind". IMO that's the Fourth Group. Unless you're a "natural" I believe luck plays a bigger role for the inexperienced.

I'd love to be a "Fourth": I try to identify sticky situations and not get into them, does that mean I qualify? I can accept the postulation that all things are predetermined and not necessarily measurable, that doesn't mean I'm not going to try to control it. That mind set takes control away, it takes chance and hope away. Nearly all the things we do are based on constructs anyway, our projections to explain our reality. That's too much for this little noggin to explore in depth.

I'll just keep riding and feeling lucky, until there might a time I don't.

I hope I win the lottery.
 
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Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
Luck plays two parts. One minor part; for the more experienced riders whove got enough experince to recognize the imminent dangers before they become critical, and one major part that applies to all of us when, for whatever reason, a crash becomes inevitable.
I've mentioned many times here that I've had a total of four on-the-road-at-speed crashes, all within the first 8 years of my 46 years of riding, mostly on public roads.
Each of those crashes taught me a new lesson, which prevented a similar type of crash, so far, for the rest of my life. I was also damn lucky to survive each of them with no serious injuries. Two of them could easily have killed me if the circumstances had been slightly different, all four could have resulted in serious-to-life-changing injury with small changes in the circumstances.
I was also very lucky numerous times in my early years in avoiding crashes just by being in a slightly different place when I needed to be. Close calls.
After well over 40 years on public roads, I hardly ever have a close call; experienced riders know their limitations and (usually) ride well within them on public roads. We also develop an ability to read very subtle cues put out by other users of the road around us, as well as the ability to tell where hidden threats might be coming from.
So luck is an important factor. I still hope I'm lucky when/if something crazy and totally unpredictable comes along, but the need for luck regarding factors within our control decrease over time as we learn how to mitigate the risks inherent in riding motorcycles.
 

flying_hun

Adverse Selection
And is it hubris to think that one can improve his luck by working to understand a certain crash and adopt a countermeasure? Really?

You read my post, and drew that conclusion regarding my meaning? I need to work on my communication skills.

DataDan I believe Flying_hun was referring to the first group in his post. He can correct me if I am wrong.

You're not wrong.
 

Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
As usual Dan, you break it down perfectly.
I would like to point out, per the bolded sentence below, that I feel the opposite about one thing: I was a very, very lucky rider during my first 8 years.
I didn't have the skills or knowledge to avoid crashes that should be avoidable. Since I don't believe in predestination, I have to say that the outcomes of those crashes couldn't have been luckier.
Today, I don't need luck as much as I did back then. I do hope that if a dog falls off a freeway overpass onto me, the luck is still there.

One group--we're talking a single-digit number of BARFers--thinks luck can be ground down to nothing. They believe that with skill and experience, random shit can be eliminated as a motorcycling risk factor. This is what philosophy geeks would call a "non-falsifiable hypothesis". There is no experiment, no observation of reality that could disprove it. If you crash, you clearly lack the needed crash-prevention trait. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

A similarly small second group sees reality as a sequence of preordained events orchestrated by external forces. We can call an outcome "lucky" or "unlucky", but that's just personal spin on what was meant to be and couldn't have been otherwise. They say "when it's your time, it's your time" but don't object to skill development or protective gear, so maybe they're hedging just a little.

A third group--don't know how many, but it seems like a lot--thinks luck plays a considerable part in motorcycling risk and that it's constant across the population. Riding safely is part skill and protective gear, which can be improved, but the remainder is intractable luck. If you disagree with them and believe instead that luck is a variable that can be improved, you're as deeply in denial as the first group. They find their view comforting because no one can be safer than they are, with their above-average bike handling skills (like the children of Lake Wobegon) and designer-label gear. And it's low-effort because trying to improve luck by learning from experience would be a waste of time with the riding environment so vast and unpredictably random.

A fourth group--which includes me and, I think, a majority of BARF--sees luck as a variable that can be developed. Through directed effort, I'm a luckier rider today than I was 10 years ago, and I hope next year to be luckier still. Each new wrinkle learned about motorcycles and roads and traffic can be put to use. But we acknowledge that safety will always be part luck. That includes "unknown-unknowns", things we don't know and don't know that we don't know, and also "known-unknowns", things we are aware could go wrong, but which we choose not to adopt countermeasures against. Known-unknowns are what I call "falling dog" problems. Thirty years ago my sister, worried about my taking up motorcycling, sent me a clipping about rider who was killed when a dog fell from an overpass. Whatever. If it happens, it happens, but I'm not taking precautions against it.

As a longtime adherent of the fourth view, I'm fed up with being accused of holding the first view. An example of a skilled and experienced rider who crashes doesn't contradict the view that luck can be improved; I don't claim the role of luck can be eliminated. And one rider's acceptance of a certain risk in order to enjoy a reward doesn't mean that that risk is inevitable for all; I may choose not to accept that risk. And is it hubris to think that one can improve his luck by working to understand a certain crash and adopt a countermeasure? Really?
 
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Carlo

Kickstart Enthusiast
When Gary J died it dawned on me that I had gotten by dumb luck. I thought to myself, "if it can happen to a guy that good, it should have happend to me already."

I don't remember the circumstances surrounding his death, but I believe he was one of the "fast guys", who pushed the envelope pretty hard.
One that I do remember who was reputed to be a very competent rider was owns9. He crashed hard at least twice on highway 9 and survived (with serious injuries, if memory serves), then failed to survive his last crash on 9.
This was not a freak occurrance. He was pushing the envelope very hard, just like he's done many times before. Luck was a far more important factor to him than skill at that time.
 
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sanjuro

Rider
I don't believe in luck. I believe in risk.

For example, this morning I was rolling down a road in my neighborhood after breakfast.

It was a 40mph 5 lane road with the center lane for left turns in either direction.

A delivery truck was in this center lane and I could see ahead a SUV was about to make a left in front of me. The SUV driver's vision was partially blocked by the truck.

I immediately performed avoidance maneuvers. I moved over right in my lane for maximum visibility. I got off the throttle and braked a bit.

What happened? The SUV saw me and did not turn. I could have been texting and made it down the street safely.

I recognized the risk though and I was prepared for an emergency stop and/or swerve.

There were also other factors, like I had just had a few cups of coffee and wanted to get home quickly. But I also acknowledged that I was in a rush before I got back on my bike, so I was also alert, not distracted.

I don't believe in random events. Yes, I might be hit by a lightning bolt, but most other dangers can be acknowledged and prepared for.
 

flying_hun

Adverse Selection
Nice post, but the Song is "What's Love got to do with it?"...just saying :twofinger

No SHIT!!? OMG, all this time I've been misunderstanding those lyrics? All that time spent watching MTV in the 80's was a complete waste? This all makes so much sense! I should hang out with you more.

I don't remember the circumstances surrounding his death, but I believe he was one of the "fast guys", who pushed the envelope pretty hard.
One that I do remember who was reputed to be a very competent rider was owns9. He crashed hard at least twice on highway 9 and survived (with serious injuries, if memory serves), then failed to survive his last crash on 9.
This was not a freak occurrance. He was pushing the envelope very hard, just like he's done many times before. Luck was a far more important factor to him than skill at that time.

  1. I would not confuse GaryJ with Lavelle
  2. Last I knew, Lavelle was still alive
 

redtail

only ones and zeroes
I don't believe in random events. Yes, I might be hit by a lightning bolt, but most other dangers can be acknowledged and prepared for.

I get what you're saying and agree, but these two statements seem to contradict each other.

I do believe that you can prepare, with practice, awareness, skill and repetition. And those things will greatly improve your "luck", or whatever you wish to call it.

But as a Vet once told me, "sometimes a bullet has your name on it, sometimes it don't." I've never been in battle, so I believe him.
 

GAJ

Well-known member
But as a Vet once told me, "sometimes a bullet has your name on it, sometimes it don't." I've never been in battle, so I believe him.

On the same subject and perhaps a bit oblique, but I think most will get the point.

One of my favorite quotes of all time attributable to many people including Georges Clemceau the French Statesmen.

“The cemeteries are full of indispensable men.”
 

NeilInPacifica

Well-known member
My mental image...a jar of jelly beans. Some of the beans are black - I don't like black jelly beans, they are poison to me. If I'm sitting alone in the dark eating jelly beans from the jar how do I avoid eating a black one? I spend time in the light, when I'm not eating them, to pick as many of them out of the jar as I can.

But there is always the chance that I missed one, or some idiot added a bag of fresh jelly beans to the jar when I wasn't looking. That's life. We can't cover every threat, nor can we guarantee that someone else didn't introduced one that we can't account for.

And sometimes there is just the butterfly effect - when I was a teenager (16-17) commuting down 101 every day to SJSU on my RD350 someone stole it while I was in class. Probably the reason I'm still here to write this now. It was a blessing in disguise...which also led to my leaving school, joining the Marines, going to a different school, meeting my wife there, having kids...etc.. etc..
 
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tuxumino

purrfect
I like to say, you have to train to be lucky.
luck is opportunity, you have to be in the right place at the right time with the right skill set and recognize the opportunity to be able to take advantage of it. In regard to crashing you must see the opportunity to not crash and seize it: if that means riding cautiously that's fine but sooner or later you find yourself in a situation you didn't foresee. Is there an opportunity to not crash, do you have the skill set to take advantage of it?
 

sanjuro

Rider
I get what you're saying and agree, but these two statements seem to contradict each other.

I do believe that you can prepare, with practice, awareness, skill and repetition. And those things will greatly improve your "luck", or whatever you wish to call it.

But as a Vet once told me, "sometimes a bullet has your name on it, sometimes it don't." I've never been in battle, so I believe him.

Well, there are events which could possibly happen, like a 2x4 falling off a truck or a driver who swerves randomly, like from a stroke.

While the only strategy is to be prepared for anything, you could be obsessed with that random event and let paranoia control you.

You have to grip the handle tightly, but not so tight that you lose feeling.

And I bet the best way to avoid being shot is to avoid a gun fight!
 

NeilInPacifica

Well-known member
While the only strategy is to be prepared for anything, you could be obsessed with that random event and let paranoia control you.

Exactly. A few years ago an entire family from Pacifica were driving home on 280 and a tow truck came down on them from the overpass. Killed the entire family. When I read the story I thought, holy shit now I need to watch for random crap falling from overpasses too!? Not happening, there's just so much I can be prepared for.
 

redtail

only ones and zeroes
A few years ago an entire family from Pacifica were driving home on 280 and a tow truck came down on them from the overpass. Killed the entire family.

Agreed, a few things are beyond our control, so you just control what you can and don't sweat the rest.
 
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