TL1000r Clutch not disengaging (hydraulic)

[tedesco886]

I just picked up a 1998 TLR track bike from a client of a friend. Really cool guy, is a track instructor, raced the bike in willow springs championship...blah blah blah

Problem: The clutch will not disengage. I have the bike idling on the stand in neutral. I pull in the clutch lever and tap it into first gear. It SLAMS into gear and the back wheel starts to spin and the idle drops to where the bike would die without reving it.(I can stop the rear wheel with the brake and it's not spinning as fast as if I were to let go of the clutch all together)

What I have done about it: I rebuilt the slave cylinder, I disassembled the aftermarket magura speigler master cylinder (connected to the clutch lever) and found no fault with that, and have bled the holy hell out of the system. I also removed the clutch cover and made sure everything was assembled correctly, which it now is(and if it makes a difference, I have changed the oil after taking off the clutch cover, yes, with the right stuff and ammount).

This problem has been happening since i got the bike and has not gotten any better or worse with my "tinkering". I don't know what the throw on the master cylinder is supposed to be, but i would say it's about 1cm as it stands right now. I feel like this problem is hydraulic, but I can find no fault with the hydraulic system....

THANK YOU FOR ANY INFO YOU MIGHT HAVE!!!!

(pics for inspiration to help me get out on the trackP)

 

[Mille Racer 69]

maybe a bunch of air got into the system :dunno
try bleeding the clutch for a second and see if you get a bunch of bubbles
or a steady flow coming out.

 

[tedesco886]

maybe a bunch of air got into the system :dunno
try bleeding the clutch for a second and see if you get a bunch of bubbles
or a steady flow coming out.

"I bled the holy hell out of the thing"

 

[afm199]

pull the cover and look at the plates.

 

[ST Guy]

So, is the bike ridable? Can you sit on it (not on the stand), pop it into gear and ride away normally? If so, there's likely nothing wrong with your clutch. It's common for wet clutches to not fully disengage. Mechanically, the plates have pulled apart and are no longer being squeezed together. However, since there are a lot of plates and there's no means in the design to actually pull each and every plate away from each and every other plate, some of the plates are still going to be in contact with each other. Then add the oil which is viscous and can cause the plates to stick together enough to do exactly what you describe. Many bikes will "CLUNK" when first dropped into gear. As long as you can do that and the bike doesn't then want to ride away, and you can blip the throttle with the clutch pulled all the way in and it won't jerk forward, then I say you don't have a problem. But having it go clunk and then having the rear wheel start spinning when you've got the rear wheel up off the ground is perfectly normal operation for many bikes.

Just my two cents.

 

[kgmoto]

Race bike, race clutch, not much idling at stop lights. If its rideable, as ST guy says, its probably by design.
Have you checked the condition of the clutch lifter rod?

 

[tedesco886]

YeH, I should have added that, when I'm sitting on the bike off the stand and I put it in first gear, the bike, with the clutch lever pulled, will stall without reving it pretty high. And again, the clutch plates are not sticking(not sticking more than normal anyway). And with it on the stand, the wheel does turn, but MUCH faster and with more torque than I've felt on any of my or my friends bikes...

 

[afm199]

Pull the clutch cover and check the plates. Sounds like possible warped steels, notched basket, or broken plate.

 

[ST Guy]

Pull the clutch cover and check the plates. Sounds like possible warped steels, notched basket, or broken plate.

This. Waped plates will take up more room than normal and hinder full disengagement. A notched basket will tend to prevent the plates from separating. Broken disk will cause it's own problems.

 

[OaklandF4i]

Check the steels as suggested above. Also carefully inspect the basket and look for any grooves at all from the friction plates. Its possible from heavy clutch dumping (wheelies etc) that your basket is worn and one or more friction plates are getting hung up.

Lastly, how did you bleed the system? Using a syringe and pushing the fluid up the system from the slave is the recomended way. Many clutch systems are impossible to fully bleed unless you use this method. Trying to pump it down from the master like a brake system just doesnt work as well on clutchs for what ever reason. Know this from experience.....

 

[kgmoto]

btw, FUCKING GORGEOUS BIKE :drool

 

[tedesco886]

replaced the slave cylinder seal....when i took apart the clutch originally, i made SURE everything was fine (which it is...), i'll try to bleed with a syringe...how do i go about doing that? fill syringe with brake fluid, connect to slave cylinder, open master cylinder as i push the syringe and close while i am still pushing?

No fluid leaks btw, thanks for your continued help

(and just for more umph to get me on the track, it has titanium M4 exhaust, carbon fiber gas tank, ohlins rear shock, marvic wheels, and dyno tuned to a very reliable 140hp with cams and pistons(had the option of 160, but that would have made it a lil more finnicky)

 

[tedesco886]

Can anyone please tell me how to reverse bleed a clutch with a syringe?
Do you have any different (maybe more effective) ways to bleed the clutch.

even though all the hydraulic parts look fine, this is the only thing I can think to be causing this problem(everything has been checked multiple times)

anyone have a video of how long the throw should be on a TL1000R slave cylinder?

 

[afm199]

It takes less than a quarter inch of throw to completely disengage a clutch. It actually takes almost none.

 

[Junkie]

replaced the slave cylinder seal....when i took apart the clutch originally, i made SURE everything was fine (which it is...), i'll try to bleed with a syringe...how do i go about doing that? fill syringe with brake fluid, connect to slave cylinder, open master cylinder as i push the syringe and close while i am still pushing?

No fluid leaks btw, thanks for your continued help

(and just for more umph to get me on the track, it has titanium M4 exhaust, carbon fiber gas tank, ohlins rear shock, marvic wheels, and dyno tuned to a very reliable 140hp with cams and pistons(had the option of 160, but that would have made it a lil more finnicky)

Um, I'm curious as to how a different dyno tune - presuming all you are changing is fueling - would make a 20hp difference, and have both run well.

 

[tedesco886]

Um, I'm curious as to how a different dyno tune - presuming all you are changing is fueling - would make a 20hp difference, and have both run well.

would not have been just fueling, would have been diff pistons and i believe diff cams...and it would would have obviously been a lil less reliable...

Back to subject though, i'm gonna be reverse bleeding my clutch tonight...i think the clutch is disengaging fine, but it's still having the same problems as mentioned in the first post...i'm gonna take the clutch cover off again tomorrow and inspect everything MUCH closer....

 

[Diezel]

Pretty sure the clutch system is same as the Busa. The bleeder valve on the clutch slave is all there is to work with. Bleeding is done old fashion way, coordinating lever pulls and open/close valve. At least things are within arms reach.

Nah, reverse bleeding is really suggested. Works the best.

I can't remember if the TL has an extension rod from the slave to the clutch assembly.... I do recall the TL and Busa slave being the same item IIRC. And the length of the rod is fairly decent, so you might want to check it with a straight edge.

Also, be sure the slave is not cracked at the mounting points (or the mounting points), and there is flexing. I've heard of some stories (i've never experienced the issue first hand).. of the Busa slaves getting cooked, and blowing out seals.. Cracking, warping etc... Hell I DO know that some of the higher HP drag busa's the owners are running a support plate on the slave cylinder.

 

[RONS_TLR]

When bleeding the clutch on my tlr, having the piston pushed all the way out before slowly bolting the slave back on, burps all the air out of the master side... Works like a charm...

 

[hitman5532]

I think I know who you bought this from... is his name greg?? If so PM me about it