The "Draggin' Knee" question (again)

[RRrider]

Back to the age old question of draggin' knee (or why isn't the knee draggin'?)

[now to pre-empt some common themes, this thread isn't about whether to or not to drag knee on the street, and this isn't about the fact that draggin' knee is a result (of correct body position, smooth lines, throttle control, etc) rather than the goal in and of itself, and this isn't about the purpose of draggin' knee to be to gauge lean angle. Let's postulate all of that.]

So, my question is, if

• from pictures (GotBlueMilk), it looks look the body position is pretty good (one butt cheek hanging off the seat, helmet down where the inside mirror would be, body along the inside of the tank and inside the bike's "vertical", etc), and if
• an instructor at the track has said my body position is pretty good, and if
• the tire is being fully used (i.e. has no chicken strips),

and yet there is still no knee draggin' going on, what's the problem? Why no knee draggin? There are people out on the track slower than me who are draggin knee? What am I doing wrong?

Is it simply a matter of going faster through the turn so countering the centrifugal forces gets my body lower? But isn't the fact that there are no chicken strips a suggestion that leaning more isn't a great idea? Where would you experienced knee dragger, B and A group guys, suggest I look for what I need to improve on?

By way of context, I'm not super fast...running a fast C group pace (based on Keigwins lap time suggestions) at Thunderhill and Sears Point (oh, sorry, Sonoma Raceway :laughing )

And, finally I've no intention of going out there and doing unnatural acts to get the knee to drag. I'm sold on the dogma of focus on lines, body position, throttle control, and (hopefully decreasing) lap times. Sooner or later, it'll just happen, as I get faster. Yet...! It'd be nice to know what I'm doing wrong.

I'll be hitting Sears Point this friday, and will probably also ask some instructor to watch me again, but I thought I'd throw the question out to the wisdom of barf before I get there.

TIA

 

[Karbon]

I imagine you just happen to have more ground clearance because of your physiology. That will come in handy when you start hitting a faster pace.

 

[fast4d]

dragging you knees on the ground has almost nothing to do with cornering fast.

 

[Spec-ECU]

If you want to drag knee, then alter your body position to drag knee. I've seen plenty of people drag knee because they're reaching for the ground. Meanwhile, I can go 'round a track at A-pace without ever touching the ground with my knees. I wouldn't be surprised if there are knee-draggers that think their pace is the fastest they can go, since they're already dragging knee.

There is body position to drag knee, and there is body position to go fast. The ground comes to my knee because of my pace, not the other way around.

Regarding the lack of chicken strips - I have none because of my pace. If a C or B Grouper's tires look like mine, yet they are over ten seconds slower than me, what does that tell you?

 

[Archimedes]

I put my knee down for one reason. To judge ground clearance and know when I'm about to run out of it. Has nothing to do with going fast or not. Has to do with feeling comfortable on the bike. I feel most comfortable with my knee on the deck in most corners. Becomes a habit.

 

[Tim-That CX Guy]

This \/ \/ \/

 

[Spec-ECU]

This \/ \/ \/

I'll raise your photo of a guy with his outside foot on the REARSET (not the peg on the rearset), to help him reach for the ground with his inside knee, with the bike practically straight up. :laughing

Rich, just focus on getting quicker, and all the farkles of fast-riding (i.e. dragging knee) will come. Going to trackdays just to drag knee is too expensive, when you can just go to a parking lot for free. :thumbup

 

[Tim-That CX Guy]

I can get a knee down whenever I want to on a 574lb 1983 tank of a bike that has doughnut sized tires because I get more than a one ass cheek off of my seat, hang off like an orangutan, and have long legs. . .
(Kind of looks like the guy in the picture above. . . )

Generally speaking, however, if I do none of the above, but rather follow Lee Parks' Total Control techniques, and I am carrying better corner speed, the knee will hit when I am not even trying.

 

[ALANRIDER7]

Enroll in the Skaggs Racing Academy.

When you get out of the ICU, your kneepucks will get bronzed as part of your graduation ceremony.

 

[RRrider]

If you want to drag knee, then alter your body position to drag knee. I've seen plenty of people drag knee because they're reaching for the ground. Meanwhile, I can go 'round a track at A-pace without ever touching the ground with my knees. I wouldn't be surprised if there are knee-draggers that think their pace is the fastest they can go, since they're already dragging knee.

There is body position to drag knee, and there is body position to go fast. The ground comes to my knee because of my pace, not the other way around.

Regarding the lack of chicken strips - I have none because of my pace. If a C or B Grouper's tires look like mine, yet they are over ten seconds slower than me, what does that tell you?

Dennis, bottomline, you're saying don't worry about it, just work on getting faster, right?

I'm also a bit confused, you say above, you can go around at A group pace without touching...but I've seen your knee pucks...they've definitely touched! At what pace is it natural to either touch or not touch, vs. requiring a deliberate effort to touch? My goal is speed and control, not touching. I don't want to do unnatural acts just to touch. But if you're saying I need to be going approximately your pace before a touch is likely to happen, well, shit, I'm a LONG way off your pace! Hmmm. I really have to wait that long before I can be cool like you? :cool :laughing

 

[stangmx13]

.....

and yet there is still no knee draggin' going on, what's the problem? Why no knee draggin? There are people out on the track slower than me who are draggin knee? What am I doing wrong?

....

nothing. u r doing it correct, they are... err, less correct.

your weight, bike's geometry, suspension settings, and spring rates have a big effect on the bikes ride-height through corners. the ground is a ton closer for a 200lb guy on an under-sprung bike compared to a 140lb guy on an over-sprung bike (assuming they are going the same pace).

 

[Ozymandias]

^^^ 1.5 feet?! I bet they meant " rather than '. :laughing

OP, I run at a high B pace low A according to Keigwin's lap times. On my F4 was just just dusting the ground occasionally with rain pucks on. On my R6 I'm not touching the ground.

As the picture above suggests, I personally have shorter legs for my height and I'm not as limber as I was 2 years ago(working on getting that back :teeth) but I don't let those things get in my head. Getting the knee down is really just that... getting it down. It doesn't mean anything other than your puck is on the deck. What you can do when it is there is another thing all together. :thumbup

 

[stangmx13]

Ozy, wah??? fixed my post a lil for clarification

 

[Bassem]

If you want to drag knee, then alter your body position to drag knee. I've seen plenty of people drag knee because they're reaching for the ground. Meanwhile, I can go 'round a track at A-pace without ever touching the ground with my knees. I wouldn't be surprised if there are knee-draggers that think their pace is the fastest they can go, since they're already dragging knee.

There is body position to drag knee, and there is body position to go fast. The ground comes to my knee because of my pace, not the other way around.

Regarding the lack of chicken strips - I have none because of my pace. If a C or B Grouper's tires look like mine, yet they are over ten seconds slower than me, what does that tell you?

That you're on a liter bike and they're not

+1 on everything Dennis said

Now if Dito is taking pictures, all bets are off

 

[Spec-ECU]

Dennis, bottomline, you're saying don't worry about it, just work on getting faster, right?

I'm also a bit confused, you say above, you can go around at A group pace without touching...but I've seen your knee pucks...they've definitely touched! At what pace is it natural to either touch or not touch, vs. requiring a deliberate effort to touch? My goal is speed and control, not touching. I don't want to do unnatural acts just to touch. But if you're saying I need to be going approximately your pace before a touch is likely to happen, well, shit, I'm a LONG way off your pace! Hmmm. I really have to wait that long before I can be cool like you? :cool :laughing

Bottomline, yes, that's what I'm saying. Go faster more smoothly, and confidently.

My scraped knee pucks are souvenirs from my days as an over-zealous B-group rider. :laughing

Since then I've realized how expensive knee pucks are, and stopped dragging them by intent. Don't read this as me NEVER dragging knee; when I'm pushing in the track, as in trying to go my fastest, my knee has nowhere to go but touch the ground unless I consciously lift them and get them even closer to the bike.

Unlike other folks, I also don't use my knee as a gauge of clearance or lean angle. Touching the ground with my knee is nothing more but an after-effect caused by the natural folding of my limbs with respect to my body position and the speed at which I'm going, necessitating the amount of lean angle I have to use.

 

[RRrider]

nothing. u r doing it correct, they are... err, less correct.

LOL

your weight, bike's geometry, suspension settings, and spring rates have a big effect on the bikes ride-height through corners. the ground is a ton closer for a 200lb guy on an under-sprung bike than a 140lb guy on an over-sprung bike.

Yea, I guess I should have mentioned, I'm a little guy. 5'8", ~150# and on a relatively big litre bike that has stiff suspension (although dialed in so it feels great and "sticky" to me).

What I'm hearing, is just keep doing what I'm doing, and be patient.
Come on guys, no magic bullets? :mad :laughing
OK, message heard. Thanks!

 

[Ozymandias]

Ozy, wah??? fixed my post a lil for clarification

Sorry, I started my post when the last post was Tim-That CX Guy's post with the knee draggin thingie image... you guys all just posted too fast. :laughing

 

[Lunch Box]

As others have said, dragging knee does not equal going fast. There was a semi-decent racer named Mike Hailwood who never dragged knee. If memory serves, he had a decent career (cut a bit short, though). The most important things are good body position, taking the correct line, and being SMOOTH.

 

[Spec-ECU]

Come on guys, no magic bullets? :mad :laughing

Fine. Send me a link to your photos. I'll give you a magic bullet. :laughing

 

[Carlo]

Back to the age old question of draggin' knee (or why isn't the knee draggin'?)

and yet there is still no knee draggin' going on, what's the problem? Why no knee draggin? There are people out on the track slower than me who are draggin knee? What am I doing wrong?


TIA

Why do you think something's wrong?

If your knee isn't dragging, it just means you can go a bit faster, which might require you to hang off a bit further, which would probably put your knee on the pavement.