Question on technique

[Mrs. Moto]

While reading some moto stuff linked off from BARF today, I found this little paragraph and am puzzled.

"The MSF teaches their students how to get and maintain control of their motorcycles. What they fail, utterly, to do is teach their students how to REGAIN control if it is lost. Students should be told that if they ever lose control of their bikes (pop a clutch, for example), they are to SQUEEZE BOTH LEVERS! Fast! No thinking! React!"

Here is the web page...
http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=003

Does the writer mean squeezing the clutch and front brake? I just imagine the result being the rider could lock up the front tire and possibly flip over the bike.

I'm sure I must be misinterpreting the instruction. Thanks for your input and any clarification.

 

[JeffKoch]

I would be wary of anything I read on Davis's pages. Quite a lot of it is simply famously wrong, though people continue to post links to it. "Losing control" can mean a lot of things, and how you react depends on the situation - a blanket "grab both levers - fast!" is ridiculous.

 

[DucatiHoney]

Does the writer mean squeezing the clutch and front brake? I just imagine the result being the rider could lock up the front tire and possibly flip over the bike.

I'm sure I must be misinterpreting the instruction. Thanks for your input and any clarification.

You're not misinterpreting it. However, I would agree with JeffKoch that squeezing both levers as hard as you can and as quickly as you can is probably an inappropriate reaction to many, if not most, bike issues/situations. Typically staying smooth--regardless of what's going on--is going to be a better strategy. Grabbing too much brake too quickly is a mistake the most newer riders make, and even veteran riders can fall victim to it. While you may stop quickly, the upset to the bike is often too much for newer riders to take and they fall over. Even if you're going too fast or in the wrong direction, you have a much better chance of survival if you're upright on the motorcycle. Being horizontal and apart from your machine rarely does anything to improve your odds of escaping from a problem unscathed. I'm not an expert on bike handling instruction by any means, but my first thought is to ride to avoid "losing control" over the bike: ride far enough behind traffic that you give yourself enough time to react appropriately for your experience, for instance. If you're having a hard time simply operating the levers then practice in a parking lot or at the track before heading into traffic. No one is a perfect rider, but popping a clutch (using the author's example) happens pretty quickly, and grabbing both levers once it's happening isn't going to occur fast enough to stop it. Instead a rider should practice taking off with the bike in a controlled environment before putting him or herself into a situation where popping the clutch becomes a dangerous problem. Popping the clutch in the Safeway parking lot = a scraped up bike and some rashed up gear. Popping the clutch on the 'S' curve on the Bay Bridge at rush hour = a hospital visit or worse.

 

[Lovedoc]

I believe it is well-accepted that you pull in the clutch ASAP when in a panic stop. Engine braking is simply a poor choice in this situation. You may need to maintain power in some other situations. However, as others noted, a HARD fast squeeze on the front brake is FAIL FAIL FAIL. The brake pads should be quickly applied to the rotors, then progressively squeezed. Also, if you "pop the clutch" you will unweight or lift your front wheel. Any front brake at all will most likely lock the front as you said, fail again. You may endo.

Also, some bikes, like my Dual Sport DRZ, maybe cruisers, DO stop better if you use the rear brake with some force.

 

[Don Tuite]

A lot depends on whether you have ABS that'll keep the front wheel rolling. Newton tells us that if the wheel stops going around, the magic that lets us defy gravity goes away.

 

[louemc]

"Lose control" is such a broad term, it has no meaning. What the biker is doing, the situation, and what the biker did wrong to lose control, has to be identified. Then what to do (if anything can be done to save it) can be described.


MSF can't be critized. They cover a huge amount of material in a very short time. They teach, if the student doesn't do as well as the masses of students that do, get what they need, Then, Throw rocks at the Dumb Ass student. What's the alternative? Having Joe Blow that isn't a bike riding teacher, or no teacher at all (self instruction) doing it? That's what we had before MSF. Trust me, that wasn't a good thing.

 

[250gpracer]

Grabbing "both levers" when student freaks out mid U-turn = on your ass

 

[JeffKoch]

Also, if you "pop the clutch" you will unweight or lift your front wheel.

Ah, that's what he meant by "pop the clutch". In this case, grabbing the front brake is the last thing you want to do - pulling in the clutch works, but what I would do is roll off the gas gently and maybe apply the rear brake.

Davis's pages have been around for years and years, pre-dating BARF by a long time even :laughing, and have been discussed countless times on forums - there's some good stuff in there, but it's surrounded by a lot of garbage advice that is just wrong, and the novice can't tell the difference. Stick to known sources like "Proficient Motorcycling" and MSF as a novice, moving up to Nick Ientasch's book as you gain skills, coupled with lots of practice and discussion on forums, and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Mrs. Moto]

Great... thanks to all for your help sorting that out! I'll keep your advice in mind during my future peruses on the internet.

 

[CaptCrash]

Great... thanks to all for your help sorting that out! I'll keep your advice in mind during my future peruses on the internet.

That's a good philosophy! Just because you can print, publish or present it doesn't mean it's true! Check with multiple sources if it sounds shaky! :nerd I'd agree that buying Hough's stuff is a great way to start a motorcycle library!

 

[Gary856]

While reading some moto stuff linked off from BARF today, I found this little paragraph and am puzzled.

"The MSF teaches their students how to get and maintain control of their motorcycles. What they fail, utterly, to do is teach their students how to REGAIN control if it is lost. Students should be told that if they ever lose control of their bikes (pop a clutch, for example), they are to SQUEEZE BOTH LEVERS! Fast! No thinking! React!"

Here is the web page...
http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=003

Does the writer mean squeezing the clutch and front brake? I just imagine the result being the rider could lock up the front tire and possibly flip over the bike.

I'm sure I must be misinterpreting the instruction. Thanks for your input and any clarification.

I belive the context of that advice on "how to regain control" is on a "run-away bike", i.e., when a newbie pops (abruptly let go) the clutch, gives the throttle a big twist, the bike accelerates out control, with the rider frozen in fear and soon crashing into a solid object. We've all seen that on YouTube, right? By "squeeze" both levers - disengage the clutch to cut power, and "squeeze" the brake to slow down, a newbie saves himself from crashing into a wall (or a car). If he drops the bike in the process, it's still way better than accelerating out of control and crashing head first into something hard. Also, note that the advise says "fast, no thinking, react" regarding the reaction time. Nowhere in that advise says "grab the brake lever as hard as you can".

I learned a lot as a new rider from the msgroup.org web site and James Davis' safety tips. The semantics of some advices could be confusing if you don't fully understand the context, so you need to work thru that to understand the meaning. As a whole, those advices from James Davis are way better and more technically accurate than most of the internet forum half-truth.