Missing on right cylinder: I forgot most obvious cause (physics)!

W800

W800

Noob
Maddevill said:
I own a Kawasaki. I generally like the company. But back in 1986 Kawasaki had thousands of bikes sold with really bad intake valves. The hard coating on the valve face was bad. My friends Ninja 1000 actually swallowed a valve. I contacted Kawasaki and, at first, they denied the problem existed. I explained I was a tech at a shop and I knew for a fact that what they saying wasn't true. They finally offered to supply parts. Refused labor

Mad
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Yes, this is my second Kawasaki. I like them too. I had a first generation KLR I bought new in the 00's. Rock solid. So that experience is partially why I went with the brand.

What I should have remembered is the old adage to never buy the first year of a new model. Even though they have been making W's now for something like 20 years, these are slightly different since they modded them to conform to Euro 4 smog and safety.

It's my hope that there's not some inherent defect as a result. The issue with the missing is I have to let the bike warm up a long time before I feel comfortable riding it. When it's still in the "missing stage," it wants to stall quite easily.
 
W800

W800

Noob
UPDATE:

Spoke with dealer SM just now. We are working on an agreement to where they will fix bike. The agreement we are working on is if they diagnose the issue, and it's "my bad," I pay for them to fix it. If they diagnose the issue, and it's "their bad," then warranty covers it. It's my hope that the people at Kawasaki USA will agree to this reasonable compromise.

Otherwise, then becomes this huge PITA with me sending certified letters to their legal counsel and stuff like that (I used to be product liability lawyer, don't practice anymore). What happens in matters like this is that their corporate office ends up spending more money in legal costs (in-house counsel are not "free" - it's lost opportunity cost on their end) than it would have cost them to simply fix what I am asserting is their defect.

I don't think anyone wants this to happen.

dravnx said:
No, you swap injectors to find a bad injector. If you swap injectors and the problem stay with the cylinder, it's not the injector. If the problem moves with the injector, it's a bad injector. Electronically swapping injectors only proves the problem is upstream from the injector.
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I get that. I rebuilt my first small motor in 1975. Can weld. Can operate lathe. Have pulled or changed motors, transmissions, clutches, differentials, etc. Have even rewired vehicles with new wiring harnesses.

The reason I don't work as a mechanic for a living is I prefer to do other things to earn money. But I totally like doing mechanical stuff on my own vehicles.

If this wasn't under warranty, I would totally swap the injectors. After that I would check valve clearance. After that, pull head and look at valves and rings. In my estimation, it's something mechanical or electromechanical. That's why heat appears to make it go away.

Swapping plugs tomorrow.

Dealer is supposed to get back to me today. Will update thread when they do.
 
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W800

W800

Noob
dravnx said:
No way is a dealer going to warranty any repair with all your mods.
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Update:

Both the dealer and a representative from Kawasaki USA corporate called me today, and they are both working on this to make it right. Out of respect for what they are doing to resolve this issue, I won't substantively comment further in this thread unless a fair resolution is not reached.

From my perspective right now, it looks like both the dealer and Kawasaki USA are sincere in their desire to resolve the issue.

As I have maintained in this thread, and in my emails to Kawasaki corporate and the dealer, and in my oral discussions with the dealer and Kawasaki corporate, (1) the problem existed before the mods, and (2) even assuming arguendo that the problem did not exist before the mods, the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc applies, since nothing I have done is capable of only affecting only one cylinder. The missing and popping on #2 is simply more noticeable now that the bike is louder.

This is a very good update, and kudos to the dealer and KUSA for doing the right thing here.

/W
 
Tom G

Tom G

"The Deer Hunter"
When / if they fix it, please let us know the course of the problem. May help someone later to look at the right things.
 
W800

W800

Noob
kuksul08 said:
Random comment... when aluminum grows while heating, holes get bigger not smaller.
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You are right. Lol, I stand corrected!

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-expansion-metals-d_859.html

My theory about the plug was wrong anyway. Still was missing on #2 even with new and properly tightened plug. Other than that, can't comment much except to say that Kawasaki USA and the dealer are really working hard to troubleshoot this, and for that, I have a great deal of respect for them.
 
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W800

W800

Noob
RVFRick said:
In addition to aluminum, this applies for most materials. However, rubber is one notable exception.
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Hmmmm. . .

This might be a clue. The shop is still working on the bike. They switched injectors and problem persisted on #2. So that rules out injectors.

I'm wondering if there's something made out of rubber that might be leaking air when cold and then sealing up when hot? It doesn't do the missing when the bike is first started (like first 5 seconds). That's when the injectors are just dumping in fuel. It's only after that, but before the bike warms up - that it misses.

Even after warming up, it's also still a little lean on #2 compared to #1. But not random popping. Just the normal overrun popping these bikes do. Plug also a little lighter on #2.

More I think about this - the more I think it really is an air issue somewhere.
 
ST Guy

ST Guy

Well-known member
Have you removed the rubber boots that hold the injectors onto the head and looked at them closely? There might be a tiny crack or defect there that is letting air in. In fact, you might just replace them all.
 
W800

W800

Noob
ST Guy said:
Have you removed the rubber boots that hold the injectors onto the head and looked at them closely? There might be a tiny crack or defect there that is letting air in. In fact, you might just replace them all.
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It's at the dealer right now. I agree with you. I think it's the rubber / plastic boots that attach the throttle body to the head. Basically, they have a blank check from Kawasaki to do whatever is needed to fix the bike. I think it's a more common problem than Kawasaki realizes, and the reason *I* really noticed it is I opened up the exhaust. Not a lot of people are doing that on this bike. It's boomers like me that are buying it, but they are keeping it fairly stock.

Stock exhaust is so quiet the all you hear are the bevel gears for the cams.

This is a new "old" model. 2019 was the first year of the "Euro 4" W800, and they changed a lot of things. I think this is an inherent problem with some of the bikes. I also think that is why Kawasaki is really interested in this.

I also want to say kudos to them, and to the local dealer for standing behind the product. Once I clearly outlined the issue to the VP of KUSA, positive things started to happen. A key KUSA corporate person called me personally from their office in SoCal, and assured me they were and are going to make it right.

I don't practice law anymore, but the fact that I used to be a defective product lawyer might have something to do with it as well. IDK.

I can say that this is all very similar to what I do for a living now. It falls into the realm of clearly communicating messages to people.
 
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W800

W800

Noob
I wanted to update the thread. The problem is FIXED under warranty!

Out of respect for the dealer and KUSA, I won't go into further details. But I will say they both bent over backwards to provide top-notch service.
 
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W800

W800

Noob
I know Kawasaki is reading this thread because I sent a PDF of it to their VP. I can't really comment except to say that Kawasaki and the dealer did me a solid on this one.

ST Guy said:
So what did they do to fix it? Don't leave us hanging.
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1

180yzfr1

kook
I could not imagine dealing with a lawyer, just fucking scum of the earth. Absolutely the lowest form of scum on the planet. Hope Kawasaki reads this.
 
W800

W800

Noob
180yzfr1 said:
I could not imagine dealing with a lawyer, just fucking scum of the earth. Absolutely the lowest form of scum on the planet. Hope Kawasaki reads this.
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Their lawyers are likely why this happened, and it's likely that's who was (and are) reading this thread.

Respect goes a long way in life.
 
ST Guy

ST Guy

Well-known member
What the heck is the secret? It's a mechanical/electrical thing. Tell us what the problem was and what they did to fix it. Otherwise this thread is just a gripe thread.
 
nakedape

nakedape

Well-known member
W800 said:
I think the dealer will give me some grief, since I already rerouted the engine breather (out of the air box), made my own exhaust, added a piggyback ECU, and bypassed the exhaust air injection. It was doing the missing before all that, but they can say that I made it worse or something.
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They found out he made it worse, fixed it for him? There's no way a common moto repair resulted in an NDA for a new bike under warranty, so I doubt there's any legal reason for the OP to withhold the outcome.
 
gixxerjeff

gixxerjeff

Dogs best friend
Not knowing the outcome and having the remedy shrouded in secrecy actually makes Kawasaki look worse under these circumstances.
Now the suspicious minds here will speculate and presume every unsavory worst case scenario.
At this point out of respect to the manufacturer it seems the kindest thing you can do is come clean. So far this thread has done them no favors.
 
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