Market Manipulation?

mike23w

mike23w

Giggity
Cheyenne said:
Yeah, that's working great on the Nikkei...

But hey, can't happen here, right?

:rolleyes
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markets as in plural as in domestic and foreign as in bonds and stocks as in diversify.

a good mix and you'd be fine right now if you didn't panic and sell in 09.
 
afm199

afm199

Well-known member
Apparently an order to sell $16 million of stock was entered as $16 billion. The huge tranche pushed down prices to the point where electronic black box selling instantly kicked in, which drove everything down further as the traders and hedgies were selling into a selling market and nobody was buying. Perfect storm.
 
Aluisious

Aluisious

Well-known member
afm199 said:
Apparently an order to sell $16 million of stock was entered as $16 billion. The huge tranche pushed down prices to the point where electronic black box selling instantly kicked in, which drove everything down further as the traders and hedgies were selling into a selling market and nobody was buying. Perfect storm.
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This shit was warned about months ago (black box trading).

Economic disasters perpetrated by a tiny few against the nation won't stop until people are seriously punished. You can be damn sure this would buy you a bullet in China.
 
afm199

afm199

Well-known member
In this case it was apparently an accident not a fraud. Nor did anyone necessarily profit from it. Black box trading has been going on for several years. This shows one of its weaknesses. Many of the trades are being cancelled.
 
Aluisious

Aluisious

Well-known member
afm199 said:
In this case it was apparently an accident not a fraud. Nor did anyone necessarily profit from it. Black box trading has been going on for several years. This shows one of its weaknesses. Many of the trades are being cancelled.
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I didn't suggest it was a fraud. But setting up a system that can cause massive economic disruption so you can profit from it when it runs most of the time should be punished so that people will stop doing it.

Same thing as the CDOs etc. Why not do stupid shit to make tons of money at everyone's expense when the worst that will happen is you'll get asked questions on CSPAN?
 
afm199

afm199

Well-known member
Aluisious said:
I didn't suggest it was a fraud. But setting up a system that can cause massive economic disruption so you can profit from it when it runs most of the time should be punished so that people will stop doing it.

Same thing as the CDOs etc. Why not do stupid shit to make tons of money at everyone's expense when the worst that will happen is you'll get asked questions on CSPAN?
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Every financial system has failure at its core. What do you think government debt is?
 
Aluisious

Aluisious

Well-known member
And as you might expect, the anchors on financial television are trying to excuse and blame the sell off on a 'fat finger' order that caused Procter and Gamble to drop 20 points in 45 seconds. Or a typist inputting an order to sell 16 million e-mini SP futures, and typing "B" instead of "M." Oops. Crashed the free world.

"Ordinarily, the financial risk in a market, and hence the risk to the economy at large, is limited because the assets traded are finite. There are only so many houses, mortgages, shares of stock, bushels of corn, [bars of silver], or barrels of oil in which to invest.

But a synthetic instrument has no real assets. It is simply a bet on the performance of the assets it references. That means the number of synthetic instruments is limitless, and so is the risk they present to the economy...

Increasingly, synthetics became bets made by people who had no interest in the referenced assets. Synthetics became the chips in a giant casino, one that created no economic growth even when it thrived, and then helped throttle the economy when the casino collapsed."

US Congressman Carl Levin


Even if any of this was true, it was just the spark that caused the market to plummet because of its highly unstable and artificial technical underpinnings. There is no longer any legitimate price discovery. The US financial system is a casino, dominated by a few big Banks and hedge funds, the gangs of New York.
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Bold is my emphasis.

Most are out whining about the cost of health care or whatever and they're all completely unaware that a couple firms on Wall Street make a trillion vanish in a couple of minutes with a fucking algorithm.

Wall Street is the enemy of the American people. We have to get rid of these assholes.
 
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afm199

afm199

Well-known member
Well I wish it was that simple. But part of the truth is that the relative luxury we live in, with heated homes, lots of food, good transportation, 400 channels, 98 soft drinks, education, infrastructure and medicine is a FUNCTION of the capitalist system. It creates great wealth. And takes it away. If you want to see what happens to a country without capitalism, visit Russia, where the average lifespan of a male is in the low sixties.

That's not a defense, by the way, simply a statement. We are all part of the system, like it or not. If you want to get rid of it, get rid of modern medicine, electrical transmission, the internet, and japanese motorcycles. Wall Street rises and falls on speculation and rumor. When it works, it creates enormous wealth, when it fails it takes it away. Most people in the US have food ( and I mean almost everyone) readily available. That is a first in the world for most nations. As short a time as 100 years ago, rickets, measles, cholera, scarlet feaver and starvation in the south of the US were still common.
 
F

Frank

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afm199 said:
In this case it was apparently an accident not a fraud. Nor did anyone necessarily profit from it. Black box trading has been going on for several years. This shows one of its weaknesses. Many of the trades are being cancelled.
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You believe someone can 'accidentally' trade one billion instead of one million, and that trade would actually carry out? :laughing

Believe me, lots of profit was made today, as well as lots of losses. I feel sorry for all the people that were stopped out.

The trades that were canceled were at the very extremes, I watched it all unfold in disbelief at the scale of the meltdown and bounce back. The numbers were swinging so wildly my head was spinning. I tried to take advantage of it but was temporarily was locked out from trading, supposedly because Ameritrade was overwhelmed by activity volume.

Was no accident, the big boys were making big moves, while independent traders like me were locked out from capitalizing on the swing. Same old story of market manipulation. Just in large scale. Isn't it funny how the market bounced back just before it hit the freeze limit?

I have no doubt that a large position (billion)was sold off at once to trigger this avalanche of selling across the boards, and followed by a bounce by people (that weren't locked out) buying shares cheap. But it was no accident. What happened was textbook classic MM.

Profit could no longer be made pumping stocks up, some are at near all time highs again. So time for the big players to shake the tree a bit.
 
Aluisious

Aluisious

Well-known member
afm199 said:
Well I wish it was that simple. But part of the truth is that the relative luxury we live in, with heated homes, lots of food, good transportation, 400 channels, 98 soft drinks, education, infrastructure and medicine is a FUNCTION of the capitalist system. It creates great wealth. And takes it away. If you want to see what happens to a country without capitalism, visit Russia, where the average lifespan of a male is in the low sixties.

That's not a defense, by the way, simply a statement. We are all part of the system, like it or not. If you want to get rid of it, get rid of modern medicine, electrical transmission, the internet, and japanese motorcycles. Wall Street rises and falls on speculation and rumor. When it works, it creates enormous wealth, when it fails it takes it away. Most people in the US have food ( and I mean almost everyone) readily available. That is a first in the world for most nations. As short a time as 100 years ago, rickets, measles, cholera, scarlet feaver and starvation in the south of the US were still common.
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The scale of abuse we are seeing is something new in the last 30 years. We were doing just fine before then, and we can roll back the clock on these people until they're doing something more in line with their true capabilities, like selling used cars.
 
AbsolutEnduser

AbsolutEnduser

Throttle Pusher
Smells like speculation and manipulation to me.
If we look at ACN stock alone, seems like that'd be an easy way for the company to trade hands without much ado about the buyer. Additionally... call me "suspicious" for having the ACN bounce back at he precise same level of 1000% after the "bungee jump" as before. Gee , how'd that happen.

First time I heard about the "error" today at 1:50pm PST, I thought they were dicking with us
 
F

Frank

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rothmans said:
I am VERY surprised the main stream media is letting something like this be said to the joe 6 pack masses on LETTERMAN :wow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRNrl-858qA&feature=player_embedded

Brian Williams on what happened today.

"THE WORLD HAS NO MONEY AND THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!!"
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Brian Williams is sensationalizing the fall. If the market had fallen another 10 points or so, all trading would of been halted. We came that close to the limit.

However, here is what happened:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...82967292538.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular

NEW YORK -- As other exchanges were in discussions over whether to cancel trades in a number of stocks including Procter & Gamble Co. that traded erratically Thursday afternoon, the New York Stock Exchange touted its move to switch the trading in P&G to a human auction to prevent things from spiraling out of control
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They halted electronic trading once the stock bottomed out, then switched to "human auction", leaving only the big boys with the ability to buy back in at the low prices. Then once prices stabilized they resumed electronic trading again.

So in other words, once the landslide of electronic stop loss sell orders were done, they controlled who could buy back in at low prices. The people who got stopped out at low prices are screwed.

Classic market manipulation. Like always, they will blame it on some "error" in trading, but only fools buy into that.
 
rothmans

rothmans

Lowering my expectations
Frank, I was referring more to Brian Williams comments about the state of things in the global economy and how Greece is just the tip of the iceberg.

But you are 100% correct on the MM...and it has been going on for a LONG time...how about all those leaks of announcements etc...where is the SEC? ( lol, right!)
 
F

Frank

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rothmans said:
Frank, I was referring more to Brian Williams comments about the state of things in the global economy and how Greece is just the tip of the iceberg.

But you are 100% correct on the MM...and it has been going on for a LONG time...how about all those leaks of announcements etc...where is the SEC? ( lol, right!)
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I thought it was funny when he said he didn't want to leave his house. :laughing

As far as the world economy I don't believe things are that dire. Investors are still in a position to lose a lot, as housing and commercial real estate is still seriously overpriced, as well as some commodities. So anyone holding paper on over valued investments stand to lose big. As well as those holding paper on debt. But as these property/commodity prices drop, economy will come roaring back because people will have more money to spend.

We might be reaching the limit of what governments (central banks) can spend on keeping prices propped/pumped up. So we are going to see some bouncing down on prices. Or maybe governments will print/pump another trillion into the mix, and we will pay the piper further down the road. Who knows what these clowns will do next. But sooner or later investors are likely to take another hit. Followed by inflation, and so the cycle continues.

But no end of the world... at least not until 2012. :laughing
 
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