FBI Shooting Range

[Beanzy]

Any BARF LEOs been to the FBI shooting range in Reno, NV?

This a.m. I talked with a town cop who, among other things, told me he'd been invited to shoot at the FBI Reno range.

He also said FBI agents have gone back to shooting 9mm pistols. (Something about most Fibbies not being able to handle the .40 recoil, I think he said.)

The police sergeant said his agency's weapon was a 9mm Glock. He used to carry a .40 (HK) and .45 (SIG) but is happy with the lighter Glock and has come close to shooting his weapon but has yet to discharge it at a suspect. I suppose these factoids are true among most cops (carrying the lighter (polymer) .40 and 9mm and not shooting suspects)?

 

[bojangle]

At the beginning of my career, almost 25 years ago, there was a move by many LE Agencies away from 9mm toward .40 Cal. Recently, there is a move back to 9mm. Greater accuracy for more officers is the reasoning I've heard.

I still carry a department issued .40 Cal Glock.

 

[NorCalBusa]

All of that is true. The FBI shootout down in Florida 30-40 years ago got them to go to .40 for certain ballistic characteristics. I seem to recall they wanted better windshield penetration. Where FBI goes (for decades), police agencies soon followed.

More recently (around 5ish years) the 9mm ammo has come a very long way- offering ballistics as good/close enough to .40. Add the more manageable recoil, agency's struggles to hire and going 9 opened the door for a lot more candidates to manage the gun vastly better.

I like .40 a lot, its what I shoot the most for 30 years. But I sure get a huge grin when I pull out the 9mm and the thing hardly wobbles. Another plus is since the 9mm round is smaller, you can fit more rounds in the magazine (compared to .40) taking up the same space.

Both- are going to leave a mark.

 

[ejv]

Several bigger federal agencies have followed or are in the process of following the FBI down the road of going back to the 9mm. Improved ammo, higher capacity, and more weight given to accurate shot placement rather than bullet energy. Guns hold up longer as well.

 

[Shaggy]

At the start of my career, .40SW and .357SIG were the hot tickets. Agencies found that some officers had difficulty managing the snappy recoil and accuracy suffered. Remember that not all cops are great or even good marksmen.

The push back to 9mm is mostly because of manageable recoil and magazine capacity. Advancements in ammunition performance backed up the decision. It’s not directly tied to the FBI.

I carry a Springfield 1911.

 

[motomania2007]

Not that I have any insight to add, but I enjoy the conversations of why professionals choose their equipment.

Doesn't always provide a useful info to an amateur like me but it does provide interesting data.

 

[orbframe]

.9mm is cheaper to buy and improvements have made it a great choice... we recently transitioned to 9mm.

 

[TheRiddler]

We just upgraded our guns and went from .40 to .40. All we really changed was going from a heavy steel gun with 11 rounds to a lighter polymer one with 15 rounds, external hammer to striker fire, tritium night sights, and a dramatically reduced trigger pull. I think the old guns were a minimum 12lbs (with many over that) to roughly 6lbs now.

I would've preferred a 9mm, but we like tradition.

 

[sportbiker929]

All of that is true. The FBI shootout down in Florida 30-40 years ago got them to go to .40 for certain ballistic characteristics. I seem to recall they wanted better windshield penetration. Where FBI goes (for decades), police agencies soon followed.

More recently (around 5ish years) the 9mm ammo has come a very long way- offering ballistics as good/close enough to .40. Add the more manageable recoil, agency's struggles to hire and going 9 opened the door for a lot more candidates to manage the gun vastly better.

I like .40 a lot, its what I shoot the most for 30 years. But I sure get a huge grin when I pull out the 9mm and the thing hardly wobbles. Another plus is since the 9mm round is smaller, you can fit more rounds in the magazine (compared to .40) taking up the same space.

Both- are going to leave a mark.

When I was in the Navy, we had the FBI LA small arms training team come give a small group of us small arms instructors a FBI firearms instructor course and they talked about that shootout. They had mentioned how a 9mm round had entered one of the perps scalp and traveled over the top of his skull and out the other side. Crazy stuff for sure. We also had a chance at the end of the course to teach some of their problem shooters. That was fun!

 

[PorradaVFR]

I had a 9mm G19 (cheaper to practice with) but prefer the G23 (.40). The recoil is definitely stronger, but not unmanageably so in my opinion.

 

[Shaggy]

They had mentioned how a 9mm round had entered one of the perps scalp and traveled over the top of his skull and out the other side.

That actually happens with some regularity. The skull is very strong and flat, so impacts at an angle can glance off but stay under the skin.

It’s why we train to shoot the “T-Box” of the eyes and nose for immediate incapacitation. Soft tissue with some pretty important stuff right behind it.

 

[NorCalBusa]

We just upgraded our guns and went from .40 to .40. All we really changed was going from a heavy steel gun with 11 rounds to a lighter polymer one with 15 rounds, external hammer to striker fire, tritium night sights, and a dramatically reduced trigger pull. I think the old guns were a minimum 12lbs (with many over that) to roughly 6lbs now.

I would've preferred a 9mm, but we like tradition.

Whatdja get?

 

[NorCalBusa]

Here's Wiki's version of the "1986 Miami shootout";

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

https://www.guns.com/news/2011/08/2...fight-that-changed-law-enforcement-nationwide

Obligatory video;

youtu.be/4C3VE-ylhWw

 

[TheRiddler]

Whatdja get?

Gen 1 M&P 40.

 

[NorCalBusa]

Gen 1 M&P 40.

Bummer not a SIG 320. That's on my short list.

 

[Shaggy]

Bummer not a SIG 320. That's on my short list.

I carried a P320 TacOps full size with an X-Five grip module for about a year. While I liked it better than a Glock, it just had a cheap feel to it like most polymer guns.

I went back to a 1911 after that. Going from 21+1 to 8/10+1 took a small adjustment, but nothing can replace the feel/experience of a 1911 for me. I’d consider a 2011 if STI made a 5” barrel version of their Staccato.

 

[NorCalBusa]

I carried a P320 TacOps full size with an X-Five grip module for about a year. While I liked it better than a Glock, it just had a cheap feel to it like most polymer guns.

I went back to a 1911 after that. Going from 21+1 to 8/10+1 took a small adjustment, but nothing can replace the feel/experience of a 1911 for me. I’d consider a 2011 if STI made a 5” barrel version of their Staccato.

My brother just picked up one of the Kimber 1911's, he (nor I) have shot it yet- I think he's still caressing it around the house and its not been in daylight yet. UV and all that...

 

[sportbiker929]

https://youtu.be/lBGfKtuo2AM

Wow!

 

[ST Guy]

All of that is true. The FBI shootout down in Florida 30-40 years ago got them to go to .40 for certain ballistic characteristics. I seem to recall they wanted better windshield penetration. Where FBI goes (for decades), police agencies soon followed.

More recently (around 5ish years) the 9mm ammo has come a very long way- offering ballistics as good/close enough to .40. Add the more manageable recoil, agency's struggles to hire and going 9 opened the door for a lot more candidates to manage the gun vastly better.

I like .40 a lot, its what I shoot the most for 30 years. But I sure get a huge grin when I pull out the 9mm and the thing hardly wobbles. Another plus is since the 9mm round is smaller, you can fit more rounds in the magazine (compared to .40) taking up the same space.

Both- are going to leave a mark.

What 9mm rounds to you use to get 10mm performance? +rounds? ++.

Oh, and I should mention that there's a new bill being considered in California that would ban ALL lead ammo at EVERY indoor and outdoor range. This will be the death of shooting in California. Contact Mullins in district 22 and also your local reps. This must be fought.

 

[NorCalBusa]

What 9mm rounds to you use to get 10mm performance? +rounds? ++.

Oh, and I should mention that there's a new bill being considered in California that would ban ALL lead ammo at EVERY indoor and outdoor range. This will be the death of shooting in California. Contact Mullins in district 22 and also your local reps. This must be fought.

I never mentioned 10mm anything, but ok...