drivers on the wrong side of the road.

[Aware]

I've read enough threads to realize that LEO cannot act on videos of bad driving sent to them. So I am not asking about that.


Yesterday I took a friend up Mount Hamilton in my pickup truck.

I have often witnessed typical scary driving, where car drivers, for whatever reason, are crossing the double yellows in blind corners. I have been faced with them many times while I ride.

But yesterday I found myself following a car driver (in a compact) who had all 4 wheels on the left lane while approaching blind left hand turns. I don't have any way to grasp how these drivers think while they are doing this.

Meanwhile I am sitting there in Chevy Colorado truck only putting a wheel on or over the yellows on the couple of exceedingly narrow stretches.

I wanted to have a word with the driver, but decided against because of the potential for unintended escalation (there's nothing wrong with my driving - you are going to kill people - are you calling me fat? ...)

So my question:

Does LEO have tools in place to raise driver awareness of the potential lethality of such driving?

I mean - do such drivers actually get way without actually killing scores of bikers and cyclists on roads like Mount Hamilton, thus being allowed to think that they are doing just fine?

I realize that it is difficult to commit resources to patrolling roads like Mount Hamilton, and I think I can speak for most riders and say we really don't want you there in case you find us doing 45mph or something ;-) But a few "please don't kill a biker today" signs or *something* to raise awareness would be nice.

 

[summitdog]

I think your best bet would be to get on a bicycle forum and get them to bring their concerns to law enforcement too.

Scotty

 

[berth]

I mean - do such drivers actually get way without actually killing scores of bikers and cyclists on roads like Mount Hamilton, thus being allowed to think that they are doing just fine?

Yes. Yes they do.

Lax enforcement enables lax compliance.

 

[budman]

I was at the observatory once where I saw a car slowly coming up and she was driving down the center period.. I was shocked :wow

Really slow too. When she pulled into the observatory I took the opportunity to politely tell her she was going to kill someone!! She said the cliff scared her and she thought by going so slow it was safe to use the entire road. I told her Mam this road is not for you then. It does not matter if your going slow a bicycle may not be able to stop in time and YOU ARE REALLY PUTTING OTHERS IN DANGER.

The description by Steve of this one had to be scary... knowing any minute Butch or Skego or any two wheeler could come the other way and be in real trouble had to be frustrating. I would have been nervous as hell.

 

[gixxerjeff]

I think your best bet would be to get on a bicycle forum and get them to bring their concerns to law enforcement too.

Scotty

This is very good advice...not surprisingly.

 

[bojangle]

I've read enough threads to realize that LEO cannot act on videos of bad driving sent to them. So I am not asking about that.


Yesterday I took a friend up Mount Hamilton in my pickup truck.

I have often witnessed typical scary driving, where car drivers, for whatever reason, are crossing the double yellows in blind corners. I have been faced with them many times while I ride.

But yesterday I found myself following a car driver (in a compact) who had all 4 wheels on the left lane while approaching blind left hand turns. I don't have any way to grasp how these drivers think while they are doing this.

Meanwhile I am sitting there in Chevy Colorado truck only putting a wheel on or over the yellows on the couple of exceedingly narrow stretches.

I wanted to have a word with the driver, but decided against because of the potential for unintended escalation (there's nothing wrong with my driving - you are going to kill people - are you calling me fat? ...)

So my question:

Does LEO have tools in place to raise driver awareness of the potential lethality of such driving?

I mean - do such drivers actually get way without actually killing scores of bikers and cyclists on roads like Mount Hamilton, thus being allowed to think that they are doing just fine?

I realize that it is difficult to commit resources to patrolling roads like Mount Hamilton, and I think I can speak for most riders and say we really don't want you there in case you find us doing 45mph or something ;-) But a few "please don't kill a biker today" signs or *something* to raise awareness would be nice.

Contact the agency of jurisdiction and request more enforcement for that specific complaint on that road. Like you said, it is a double edged sword, because if you get what you all for, well, there would be more LEO presence enforcing traffic laws.

 

[Junkie]

I believe the front side of Hamilton is unmarked as far as speed limit goes, and therefore 55. That's not particularly easy to do.

 

[Aware]

It's marked 40 at the bottom. Then ... no other signs. So I always assumed 40 all along.

 

[budman]

I always assumed 55mph as well. That 40 is still in a residential area.

 

[Junkie]

Yeah, I have no clue if a speed limit sign applies forever even if the road type changes significantly (residential to rural). There are plenty of places I've seen that, with speed limit signs coming into town but not leaving.

 

[bojangle]

Yeah, I have no clue if a speed limit sign applies forever even if the road type changes significantly (residential to rural). There are plenty of places I've seen that, with speed limit signs coming into town but not leaving.

There prima facie speed limit on two lane roads in city limits is 25 MPH and it's 55 MPH outside city limits. That applies if no speed limit signs are posted

If the lower part of Mt. Hamilton is marked at 40 MPH, and there are residences/driveways nearby, and then the residences/driveways stop and so do the 40 MPH signs, it's safe to assume the speed limit is 55 MPH. Same with entering a city/town with a posted reduced speed. Once you leave the town, if there are no posted limits, it's safe to assume a 55 MPH speed limit.

To put it another way, in city limits, you need a posted sign authorizing any speed higher than 25 MPH. Outside of city limits, you need a posted sign to require reduced speeds of less than 55 MPH. Freeways are subject to maximum speed limit laws (65 or sometimes 70 MPH).

 

[Junkie]

Right, I knew the prima facie speed limits, I just didn't know if a posted sign "expired" when the road type changed.

Is it based on city limits? I thought it was based on whether it met the definition of a residence district or business district, which was independent of city limits.

515.
A “residence district” is that portion of a highway and the property contiguous thereto, other than a business district, (a) upon one side of which highway, within a distance of a quarter of a mile, the contiguous property fronting thereon is occupied by 13 or more separate dwelling houses or business structures, or (b) upon both sides of which highway, collectively, within a distance of a quarter of a mile, the contiguous property fronting thereon is occupied by 16 or more separate dwelling houses or business structures. A residence district may be longer than one-quarter of a mile if the above ratio of separate dwelling houses or business structures to the length of the highway exists.

235. A “business district” is that portion of a highway and the property contiguous thereto (a) upon one side of which highway, for a distance of 600 feet, 50 percent or more of the contiguous property fronting thereon is occupied by buildings in use for business, or (b) upon both sides of which highway, collectively, for a distance of 300 feet, 50 percent or more of the contiguous property fronting thereon is so occupied. A business district may be longer than the distances specified in this section if the above ratio of buildings in use for business to the length of the highway exists.

240. In determining whether a highway is within a business or residence district, the following limitations shall apply and shall qualify the definitions in Sections 235 and 515:
(a) No building shall be regarded unless its entrance faces the highway and the front of the building is within 75 feet of the roadway.
(b) Where a highway is physically divided into two or more roadways only those buildings facing each roadway separately shall be regarded for the purpose of determining whether the roadway is within a district.
(c) All churches, apartments, hotels, multiple dwelling houses, clubs, and public buildings, other than schools, shall be deemed to be business structures.
(d) A highway or portion of a highway shall not be deemed to be within a district regardless of the number of buildings upon the contiguous property if there is no right of access to the highway by vehicles from the contiguous property.

22352. The prima facie limits are as follows and shall be applicable unless changed as authorized in this code and, if so changed, only when signs have been erected giving notice thereof:
(a) Fifteen miles per hour:
(1) When traversing a railway grade crossing, if during the last 100 feet of the approach to the crossing the driver does not have a clear and unobstructed view of the crossing and of any traffic on the railway for a distance of 400 feet in both directions along the railway. This subdivision does not apply in the case of any railway grade crossing where a human flagman is on duty or a clearly visible electrical or mechanical railway crossing signal device is installed but does not then indicate the immediate approach of a railway train or car.
(2) When traversing any intersection of highways if during the last 100 feet of the driver’s approach to the intersection the driver does not have a clear and unobstructed view of the intersection and of any traffic upon all of the highways entering the intersection for a distance of 100 feet along all those highways, except at an intersection protected by stop signs or yield right-of-way signs or controlled by official traffic control signals.
(3) On any alley.
(b) Twenty-five miles per hour:
(1) On any highway other than a state highway, in any business or residence district unless a different speed is determined by local authority under procedures set forth in this code.
(2) When approaching or passing a school building or the grounds thereof, contiguous to a highway and posted with a standard “SCHOOL” warning sign, while children are going to or leaving the school either during school hours or during the noon recess period. The prima facie limit shall also apply when approaching or passing any school grounds which are not separated from the highway by a fence, gate, or other physical barrier while the grounds are in use by children and the highway is posted with a standard “SCHOOL” warning sign. For purposes of this subparagraph, standard “SCHOOL” warning signs may be placed at any distance up to 500 feet away from school grounds.
(3) When passing a senior center or other facility primarily used by senior citizens, contiguous to a street other than a state highway and posted with a standard “SENIOR” warning sign. A local authority may erect a sign pursuant to this paragraph when the local agency makes a determination that the proposed signing should be implemented. A local authority may request grant funding from the Active Transportation Program pursuant to Chapter 8 (commencing with Section 2380) of Division 3 of the Streets and Highways Code, or any other grant funding available to it, and use that grant funding to pay for the erection of those signs, or may utilize any other funds available to it to pay for the erection of those signs, including, but not limited to, donations from private sources.

 

[Aware]

There prima facie speed limit on two lane roads in city limits is 25 MPH and it's 55 MPH outside city limits. That applies if no speed limit signs are posted

Thanks. I'm "not from round here" so that fact had passed me by.

As for the suggestions about getting with cyclists groups to complain: are you guys proposing that cyclists have a powerful collective voice? (I'm ignurnt).

Also I feel like the responses are searching for enforcement, where really I was looking for ways to raise awareness. Seems to me that the worst drivers on mt Hamilton may be as terrible as they are because they only venture onto roads like that once in a blue moon. So random heightened enforcement won't change anything, whereas tools for awareness have the potential for long term improvement.

 

[motomania2007]

Even if the speed limit is 55, you can still be ticketed for going 40mph if that is too fast for conditions of a very tight, twisty road, under California's basic speed law.

I have ridden Mt Hamilton too many times to count and there are plenty of portions where 55 mph is too fast.

 

[budman]

Thanks. I'm "not from round here" so that fact had passed me by.

As for the suggestions about getting with cyclists groups to complain: are you guys proposing that cyclists have a powerful collective voice? (I'm ignurnt).

Also I feel like the responses are searching for enforcement, where really I was looking for ways to raise awareness. Seems to me that the worst drivers on mt Hamilton may be as terrible as they are because they only venture onto roads like that once in a blue moon. So random heightened enforcement won't change anything, whereas tools for awareness have the potential for long term improvement.

Seems to me enforcement won't help either. Perhaps warning signs to "DANGER stay on your side of the road due to huge killer trucks coming" the other way would work. :teeth

 

[Aware]

Seems to me enforcement won't help either. Perhaps warning signs to "DANGER stay on your side of the road due to huge killer trucks coming" the other way would work. :teeth

Ha. Maybe. Or in this case, little killer Yarises.

 

[bojangle]

Thanks. I'm "not from round here" so that fact had passed me by.

As for the suggestions about getting with cyclists groups to complain: are you guys proposing that cyclists have a powerful collective voice? (I'm ignurnt).

Also I feel like the responses are searching for enforcement, where really I was looking for ways to raise awareness. Seems to me that the worst drivers on mt Hamilton may be as terrible as they are because they only venture onto roads like that once in a blue moon. So random heightened enforcement won't change anything, whereas tools for awareness have the potential for long term improvement.

Yeah, well, good luck with that. How do you target people who are prone to do this with education? I'd say the best way to do this is identifying and stopping the people doing this. It's illegal to cross over double yellow lines. It's illegal to drive on the left side of the road. I think almost all drivers, licensed and unlicensed, know this.

If we wanted to be serious about this we'd have laws requiring a retest at the DMV every X number of years, following a driver safety course showing lots of video clips of collisions and how they occur.

Even if the speed limit is 55, you can still be ticketed for going 40mph if that is too fast for conditions of a very tight, twisty road, under California's basic speed law.

I have ridden Mt Hamilton too many times to count and there are plenty of portions where 55 mph is too fast.

True.

 

[bojangle]

Right, I knew the prima facie speed limits, I just didn't know if a posted sign "expired" when the road type changed.

Is it based on city limits? I thought it was based on whether it met the definition of a residence district or business district, which was independent of city limits.

They should post a sign when a speed limit changes, or an "END 40 SPEED LIMIT" sign, etc. But that doesn't always happen.

Yeah, what you posted are the vehicle codes. It doesn't have to be an Incorporated city, as there are developed county areas that would qualify.

 

[Aware]

You can watch from Lick Observatory and see the wrong side of the road drivers any day ... probably can't tell the speed of bikers ;-)

 

[ScottRNelson]

Seems to me enforcement won't help either. Perhaps warning signs to "DANGER stay on your side of the road due to huge killer trucks coming" the other way would work. :teeth

There are several dozen signs on the Mt. Diablo roads warning about not passing bikes on blind curves. But I guess that doesn't help the foolish drivers that aren't passing a bike when they're over on the wrong side of the road in a blind curve. Clearly somebody put enough effort in to get all of these signs posted up there. I don't see why the same couldn't be done for Mt. Hamilton.